Issues with Coil: Statics v. The Rest of Us

I agree wit the OP wholeheartedly.

And yes, I already have a Coil static^-^

All you Elitist prudes do not have any say at all in which friends and FC-mates I can or cannot help, so would you kindly get the hell out of this thread.

OHHHH, that's right. I can't tell you to get out of this thread, much like how you can't tell me I can't help a friend outside of my Coil static.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

One Monk can silence the whole of Turn 2.

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LOL i forgot about the monk silence, well my example stands, just replace monk for another dragoon, or blm and its fixed :p

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Originally Posted by Slate

This kind of thinking has been around ever since Ultima Online/Everquest. I can remember being jealous I didn't have that Executioner's Axe when I saw someone carrying it around in the East Commons tunnel entrance (think I got that right lol).

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Meet you at torch 2

Everyone says BC is for "experienced" people yet no one raises the question of how people are supposed to experience anything they can't participate in. Unlike reality, there are no colleges or internships for "end game" that allow people to get their feet wet and work their way up to the level of competency that so many of you would demand of your members.

Add BC to the DF, let the people who want to pug it, pug it. Unlike that asinine debate about selling Titan runs, this really DOESN'T affect the people who are already farming it in their exclusive, champagne room-esque groups.

What you're really concerned about is that the milk and honey of bragging rights that comes with being on Turn 4 or 5 wouldn't be quite as sweet if a pug managed to accomplish the same thing. But since we obviously don't believe such levels of group cohesion are possible, why oppose it?

I see a lot of talk on static 8 man groups breaking up friends and breaking up FCs. You'll see a lot of that go away when the FC housing patch comes out and ppl realize the benefit of being in larger FCs. Airships later on too.

It is much easier and sensible to put all your friends together in on large FC, and have coil groups which is a group made for a very specific function in a linkshell of just those 8 for communicating raid times

It seems counterintuitive to a lot of folks but the fact that you can have 8 LS and that LS
Popcap is lower makes this the more practical

While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, this, along with the Titan HM run selling debate, feel like issues with foundations that might change once gear check is implemented, and I coulda sworn it was mentioned somewhere that they're going to make it easier for the whole LFG-flag system to form pugs from within your own server (so no shouting would be required).

The addition of gear check would mitigate the issue of fresh level 50's in ilvl 45-50 gear trying to waltz into BC before they have the gear necessary to even gauge their 'skill' on the content, where as the ability to form in-server pugs without having to try to dive into the shout spam in Mor D'hona might make it easier for a larger demographic of players to get in on that without necessarily needing DF access. I'm not saying I expect either of these to completely solve the issue, but I'd wager they'd definitely make a big change, so I'm developing a 'wait and see' mentality towards both these issues atm.

(I know gearcheck doesn't mean they're adding BC to the DF, but if it helps the current DF content's success rate, it would make advocating for BC on the DF ballot a touch more reasonable)

I think we're at this phase in discussion because there's no alternative end game available on the level of Coil.
I believe there should be some content in which only organized groups can enter, gives the best loot in the game and can't be accessed using DF. But at the same time, there should be content similar to it, with loot inferior to Coil and can be pugged.
This is why I'm wondering how CT will work out. I hope SE can make it work, since this is exactly what people need.

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Originally Posted by Slate

This kind of thinking has been around ever since Ultima Online/Everquest. I can remember being jealous I didn't have that Executioner's Axe when I saw someone carrying it around in the East Commons tunnel entrance (think I got that right lol).

MMOs are all about the haves and have nots. You should have to work for something to get it. Get into an FC. Prove yourself worthy to go on runs with that crew. Or create your own and work your way through it.

I dont think DF will ever work because the strats are more strenuous than Titan HM at times.

Everyone SHOULD have the opportunity to get all gear. However it shouldn't be handed to you. Get out there and do what you have to do in an MMO, be SOCIAL!

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You miss the point. As I've said before, having to "work" for the gear is fine, but it's a game, not the DMV. Before duty-finder-like functionalities were put in games, the hours of LFP shout were understandable and unavoidable -- the infrastructure to fix it simply didn't exist. But there's no excuse for it now.

Also, the lockout system itself, in its current iteration, is antisocial -- as it stands you see your static and run w/ them, and no one else. That's not exactly "massively" multiplayer.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, this, along with the Titan HM run selling debate, feel like issues with foundations that might change once gear check is implemented, and I coulda sworn it was mentioned somewhere that they're going to make it easier for the whole LFG-flag system to form pugs from within your own server (so no shouting would be required).

The addition of gear check would mitigate the issue of fresh level 50's in ilvl 45-50 gear trying to waltz into BC before they have the gear necessary to even gauge their 'skill' on the content, where as the ability to form in-server pugs without having to try to dive into the shout spam in Mor D'hona might make it easier for a larger demographic of players to get in on that without necessarily needing DF access. I'm not saying I expect either of these to completely solve the issue, but I'd wager they'd definitely make a big change, so I'm developing a 'wait and see' mentality towards both these issues atm.

(I know gearcheck doesn't mean they're adding BC to the DF, but if it helps the current DF content's success rate, it would make advocating for BC on the DF ballot a touch more reasonable)

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I agree with a lot of this, and while gear check would prevent the 'fresh 50' problem, I don't think it'd be an issue anyway since (I think?) you need to clear Titan before you even get the quest for BC.

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Originally Posted by Slate

This kind of thinking has been around ever since Ultima Online/Everquest. I can remember being jealous I didn't have that Executioner's Axe when I saw someone carrying it around in the East Commons tunnel entrance (think I got that right lol).

MMOs are all about the haves and have nots. You should have to work for something to get it. Get into an FC. Prove yourself worthy to go on runs with that crew. Or create your own and work your way through it.

I dont think DF will ever work because the strats are more strenuous than Titan HM at times.

Everyone SHOULD have the opportunity to get all gear. However it shouldn't be handed to you. Get out there and do what you have to do in an MMO, be SOCIAL!

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LOL, need to get the overpowered item "manastone" pre nerf mask before they nerf/remove it. Oh, they already did one with the Gobue mount. :P

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Originally Posted by Suhzu

I think we're at this phase in discussion because there's no alternative end game available on the level of Coil.
I believe there should be some content in which only organized groups can enter, gives the best loot in the game and can't be accessed using DF. But at the same time, there should be content similar to it, with loot inferior to Coil and can be pugged.
This is why I'm wondering how CT will work out. I hope SE can make it work, since this is exactly what people need.

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If there is content similar to it on the DF it shouldnt be rewarding gear that is any less inferior.

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Originally Posted by VitaminMT

I don't see what the issue is. Coil is currently meant to be the most difficult content; it makes sense that you can't just rope together a bunch of nobodies and expect to win with any consistency. If you want to wait for your friends, wait for your friends. If you want to run coil while they catch up, nothing's stopping you from leaving your current static party once your friends are geared up.

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This pretty much sums it up.

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Originally Posted by Randalthor

This pretty much sums it up.

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It's called ditching your friend.

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Originally Posted by Randalthor

This pretty much sums it up.

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No, it doesn't. Because it doesn't offer any explanation for why the OP and others like them can't have what they want while the rest of you can continue to play as you always have been. This isn't an issue where one side loses while the other gains. The joy of being in a static is that what goes on outside of a static doesn't impose on you or your members in any way and yet everyone vehemently opposed to this idea already play in said static groups.

If we really don't want/need anymore quality of life options for dungeons, then how about we go back to making everyone track down the entrance to said dungeon before they can enter EVERY TIME. You can see how small conveniences like these can occasionally be worth their weight in gold.

instead of ditching your friends why dont you help them get ready for coil faster, or invite other likeminded people into your FC? If your friends aren't serious enough to do coil then isn't it better for you to find someone or group that has the same goals? Good FCs or groups almost always come from people doing the same hard content long enough and are compatible with each other. Back in 1.0 when completing relic required tons of work and effort, people started to form static groups during the hamlet phase and alot of them stayed together till today.

I left my long time LS since 1.0 because their goals weren't in line with mine so I end up with another FC and I'm happy with it because we have like.. 7 groups of coil static across all timezones (JST, PST, EST, GMT), we would get things done on tuesday and have the rest of the week chill or help others/alts.

It's also a form of socializing since you aren't constraint by your own group, you seek out others that can do stuff with you and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Dano

instead of ditching your friends why dont you help them get ready for coil faster, or invite other likeminded people into your FC? If your friends aren't serious enough to do coil then isn't it better for you to find someone or group that has the same goals? Good FCs or groups almost always come from people doing the same hard content long enough and are compatible with each other. Back in 1.0 when completing relic required tons of work and effort, people started to form static groups during the hamlet phase and alot of them stayed together till today.

It's also a form of socializing since you aren't constraint by your own group, you seek out others that can do stuff with you and have fun.

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This doesn't really solve the issue of anything outside of multiple of 8 got left out. Recruit too many and people got left out, get too little and you do nto have enough.

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Originally Posted by Argent_Wings

No, it doesn't. Because it doesn't offer any explanation for why the OP and others like them can't have what they want while the rest of you can continue to play as you always have been. This isn't an issue where one side loses while the other gains. The joy of being in a static is that what goes on outside of a static doesn't impose on you or your members in any way and yet everyone vehemently opposed to this idea already play in said static groups.

If we really don't want/need anymore quality of life options for dungeons, then how about we go back to making everyone track down the entrance to said dungeon before they can enter EVERY TIME. You can see how small conveniences like these can occasionally be worth their weight in gold.

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Truth.



/10char

Did you really edit your post to insert all your comments to the people that you disagree with? That must have took some time. I dunno I have mixed feelings about reading the op then reading everyone's comments only to find out I already read them in the op. Takes the fun out of trolling - I mean reading the forums.

The moment the hardest content in game becomes do-able in duty finder groups is the moment I give up on the game. I've done several pugs on turn 1 and 2 as a monk when my original static group fell apart and well, it's not that hard to get into a pug anymore. But good luck getting a duty finder group and having people leave group after one wipe.

Coil requires some specific setups to be picked up in DF.
Maybe SE could change the lockout system, maybe not allowing you to get more than one boss/tier drops, but then you would see people get their weekly share and then spam them to sell drops :p

I suspect the real reason coil isn't on DF is because of the lockout system, I'd be annoyed if I queued on monday evening only to land up with someone saved till turn 4, not really going to make any progress from there in a pug and that's going to be that person's coil week wasted before it even started. SE could rework the lobby and separate the turns out so they had their own unique entrance and DF slot but given how often DF pugs manage to clear titan, I'm not sure that the work required would be worthwhile frankly.

As mentioned many many times in this thread. Coil really requires a fairly static team to make proper progression, DF can't provide that. Form your own groups and try to keep hold of people that do well. Get a linkshell going perhaps?

While i don't see how duty finder coil would help, like, at all, i do agree that the lockout timer is a HUGE pain in the ass -- and this is coming from a FC leader with 2 coil group.

Managing how to satisfy everyone is super complicated for us, as we can not guarantee that we will be there 100% of the time (you know, we have work that can keep us late, wife, kids, etc...). We do our best, and we have attendance of like 90% for most of us. But even then, you get screwed pretty often. Either we have to pug a slot half the time (huge time sink shouting for someone that has TS + enough gear + no lock out + not a douchebag), and it is still waaaay less effective most of the time that having your regular one, or you keep a list of people you can draw from to complete your groups, but nobody like to be used like this, so you end up with trouble at some point.

Seriously, we are all very invested in this game in my group, but short of being 100% hardcore attendance all the time (and yeah, could do that in college, can't anymore), the lockout timer is proving to be a huge problem to organize runs.

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Originally Posted by GilbertLapine

- Functionality for players to run Coil unlimited number of times per week, with loot lockouts after first attempt (and ideally some other, smaller reward like a modest gil drop, etc.)

Please post your thoughts here, with any feedback on the issue or my comments, or your own take on and experiences with the situation.

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this will end into big FCs selling baha run (@least t1-4) like they sell titans. the buyer will juste have to start the run

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

...Form your own groups and try to keep hold of people that do well. Get a linkshell going perhaps?

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I already have a static, so what about other friends and LS-mates I wish to help out?

"Nothing's stopping you from leaving your static."



Nothing's stopping you from leav- Oh shut up, then who the hell is helping my static then if I leave?

The lockout preventing team members from helping other teams is a horrible, horrible limitation. It creates a situation where you have a "Coil Club" of players on teams, and everyone else. Everyone else is effectively locked out of participation. As several have mentioned this makes building a Coil team a nightmare because of the reactions of those who do not make the cut. People get truly annoyed and angry, they feel excluded and somehow passed over in favor of others.

Basically the lockout encourages the impression of favoritism and ENFORCES a form of elitism. Neither of these things are good for the interpersonal relationships of a free company.

If the lockout is intended to prevent farming, reduce the drop rates for players on their second and subsequent runs during a week, and allow the players to participate in more than one team. At least allow players to participate in more than one team in a week.

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Originally Posted by Hik0

this will end into big FCs selling baha run (@least t1-4) like they sell titans. the buyer will juste have to start the run

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If gear checks were implemented, I don't see this being a huge issue. If you've already got an avg iLv of somewhere around 75-80, I don't imagine you would have a huge skill problem w/ coil anyway, and regardless if you only got a chance at the drops once per week I don't see this being any more of an issue that people buying titans. Just means they'll have to grind more somewhere else to afford it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If the lockout is intended to prevent farming, reduce the drop rates for players on their second and subsequent runs during a week, and allow the players to participate in more than one team. At least allow players to participate in more than one team in a week.

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Well, like I said I think it makes sense to totally lock a player from even rolling on drops after their 1st try, just let them still participate and receive tomestones.

Loved your post btw :D

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Originally Posted by Casper

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99% agree.

As far as the DF bashing, I gotta dissent tho. If they put in a gear check to make sure people were at least capable of running the content, it would be fine. T5 is allegedly a beast (I haven't even bothered attempting, tbh), but T1-4 really aren't that hard. I've found them generally easier and more enjoyable than Titan HM, so I don't really get the people that are like "Coil needs statics" "Must have TS3" etc. The times I've run with VOIP all people use it for is bitching at someone when they screw up -- the rest of it, whether it be coordinating T2 rots or handling bugs in T4, can be easily done through chat with little confusion.

Even then, I've beat T2 with a PLD ot that was still using AF equips (guess his FC carried him to get his relic, mained on war or something). Wasn't even a problem.

Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by GilbertLapine

Even then, I've beat T2 with a PLD ot that was still using AF equips (guess his FC carried him to get his relic, mained on war or something). Wasn't even a problem.

Just sayin.

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That is an exception, not the rule.

Entire thread is ridiculous:

1: If you get rid of the lockout and make it a gear lockout you would have FC/LS's running 7 people who can't get the drops running 1 guy through to pocket every single drop and fully gear in weeks.

2: If you cannot get in a static:
A: Find a better LS/FC, mine and many others run static free but its always in-house runs regardless (currently 4 groups every week getting to T5 in about 1hr).
B: You might be bad and people do not want to play with you.

3: If its put into DF and casuals get to wipe endlessly to content they are obv not going to be geared for, they will cry for it to be nerfed and SE will do it, the fact that this game exist in the way it currently does proves SE is bending over for bad players.

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Originally Posted by Jeronlmo

Entire thread is ridiculous:

1: If you get rid of the lockout and make it a gear lockout you would have FC/LS's running 7 people who can't get the drops running 1 guy through to pocket every single drop and fully gear in weeks.

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Excuse me, who the hell are you to tell me who I can or cannot help within my own FC/LS? Ignored.

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Originally Posted by Jeronlmo

Entire thread is ridiculous:

1: If you get rid of the lockout and make it a gear lockout you would have FC/LS's running 7 people who can't get the drops running 1 guy through to pocket every single drop and fully gear in weeks.

2: If you cannot get in a static:
A: Find a better LS/FC, mine and many others run static free but its always in-house runs regardless (currently 4 groups every week getting to T5 in about 1hr).
B: You might be bad and people do not want to play with you.

3: If its put into DF and casuals get to wipe endlessly to content they are obv not going to be geared for, they will cry for it to be nerfed and SE will do it, the fact that this game exist in the way it currently does proves SE is bending over for bad players.

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I've been lurking on these forums, for a very long time, but this thread has brought out the most face palm ever, this guy here, he gets it.

If there was a "loot lockout" I would force my FC to level a second character, gear them out, then run 7 alts and 1 main for coil, and do this 8x a week, and be geared for every class for everyone on their main in just a few weeks (depending on drops). this would instantly break the game, not to mention the fact that it would require a ridiculous amount of time, but, that doesn't matter when progress is at stake. for a top end FC, they would do this, guaranteed.

the lockout is simply a way of saving players from themselves, and not forcing them to burn out on the content. if you had to do coil 9+ times a week, and all but one of those times, you got nothing, how fast would the burn out be for you? for someone else, maybe not so bad, but for me, and for other friends of mine, as well as many people when this same idea was proposed in other games, said this kind of thing would kill the game for them.

also, difficult content that is made for DF is being made right now, its called Crystal Tower. wait another month until it comes out, then you have your tough DF content. They plan on doing it this way, top end small static group patch (like coil) then casual friendly raid patch DF unlocked (Crystal Tower, stuff to be determined later). this will give content for those groups of players. You can still pug coil, in a shout group.

This is a social game, dungeon finder will not increase the social aspect of the game, in fact, it does the opposite, keeping coil the way it is, is GOOD for the game. You might not see it, But I do, because turning coil into a DF wipefest will not increase peoples enjoyment of the game, in fact, it will lessen it, because the social aspect will get thrown out the window and everyone will go at each others throats in those groups until people quit the game. There is very many more cons to this idea then pros.

This would also make people sell coil runs, people pay good money to get run through titan, full coil gear in a couple weeks for a couple million gil? sounds like a good deal. if you don't like people selling titan runs, get ready for the people selling coil runs, and it will be much, MUCH, more rampant.

These ideas from similar games have been debunked numerous times, for these reasons.

I agree with you Gilbert.

ONe thing that's always bothered me in MMOs I've played is that eventually, players start asking for specific people to join their static or pugs. Why shouldn't they? They have a right to and it's common sense to do so if you want to succeed and be effective, but... then it becomes like the old 'can't get a job cause you don't have work experience' thing. If you don't have experience with a particular dungeon, you can't get in the group, but you can't get experience without getting into a group... kinda screwed there.

Making every dungeon available in Duty Find would provide a great option to learn the dungeon, fail or succeed, and get that experience you need to join a that pug or that well established static. Always thought that was the point of Duty Find, since you're grouped up with random people that may or may not have the skills to succeed in a particular dungeon. You can expect to win if you want to but, you're still playing russian roulette.

No one is talking about making the content easier (tho I think I've read that the devs plan to do so as new, harder content is made available, no?), we're just talking about making it more accessible so that people can experience and learn the content. Sure, that'll piss off the elitist among us who like to feel exclusive, but, heh, you never rise above others by kicking them down or keeping them from climbing up.


EDIT: Post above me refers to people selling coil to players who can't complete it. I think the fact that more people would get access to the dungeon and be able to learn it well enough to start joining pugs or statics would mean less people resorting to buying their way through.

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Originally Posted by GilbertLapine

Snip.

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Your whole issue seems like it'd be solved by the group finder system they're adding next patch.
You will be able to form a pug without shouting in Mor Dhona forever.
The only difference between this and duty finder is that it's a bit more manual.

But the whole cross server thing is really not any good for coil. You're not making friends for very long and it's much harder coordinate.
You can't even leave and re-enter an instance with duty finder.

My suggestion:
Use the new tool in the next patch and make your pick up groups with little hassle.
Make a linkshell for anyone wanting to do coil but not on a specific schedule or such. A non-static conglomerate?

I agree the lockout should be for loot only. Not sure they'll lift that soon, but I'd like that.

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Originally Posted by Levanin

If there was a "loot lockout" I would force my FC to level a second character, gear them out, then run 7 alts and 1 main for coil, and do this 8x a week, and be geared for every class for everyone on their main in just a few weeks (depending on drops).

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Hey, just because some so-called "hardcore" players would do this, doesn't mean everyone would. You're not psychic, you're not a crappy player like me, you don't know what I would or wouldn't do. Get the hell outta here with your elitist negativity. Ignored.

I like both ideas. It would be nice if you could run coils more than once per week but could receive something cool like 10k gil per floor cleared instead of being able to speed farm armor. Would be fun.

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Originally Posted by HamHam

Bump for social justice.

I'm with the OP. In fact, static party in my FC have left a sour taste in my mouth. It wasn't until a short time ago where we all (the few remaining members from the FC) were trying coil together, then someone in leadership decided to form a static and alienated the rest of the FC, which is about 5 of us anyways (that's how all the FC is now).

I'm not having fun anymore, which is one of the purpose I play the game, and that is to have fun.

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I feel for you, but if that's the way your FC is operated, then maybe it's time to find another. This is the reason I actually like joining the smaller guilds in MMO communities. They may take a while to get to endgame content, but they won't leave their members high and dry because reasons.

Join a small fc, can't get things done, join an elite fc, full of douches. What to do oh what to do.

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Originally Posted by Levanin

If there was a "loot lockout" I would force my FC to level a second character, gear them out, then run 7 alts and 1 main for coil, and do this 8x a week, and be geared for every class for everyone on their main in just a few weeks (depending on drops). this would instantly break the game, not to mention the fact that it would require a ridiculous amount of time, but, that doesn't matter when progress is at stake. for a top end FC, they would do this, guaranteed.

the lockout is simply a way of saving players from themselves, and not forcing them to burn out on the content.

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Makes me question the maturity of "hardcore raiders", and why should SE even bother cathering to them.

I agree with having coil on DF. The problem is players mentality that can be seen in titan HM df. "Someone makes one mistake? GTFO!" Flaming instead of trying to explain/improve. DF-ing hard content works only as long as players are not considering themselves "entitled to win it" without putting much effort first.
Features required:
- ability to restart instance with same party members after time runs out
- leave penalty equal to time left till end of instance (after using feature above this penalty is no more)
- auto afk kick that imposes leave penalty when triggered
- extreme punishment for any behaviour trying to make someone else leave. Permanent ban on df challenges on FIRST such criminal offense.


About lockouts, i think best option would be lockout per role. Progress is saved separately for ur tank jobs, dps jobs and healer jobs. That would be up to 3 raids per week for a player. Role lockout would take best use of the armoury system. Among the same role u can pick a job that is best suited for the encounter. Then have a new experience with entirely different role, also with possibility to pick one best suited for encounter. Now to prevent loot pooling, i thought of 2 solutions:

1. Greed button is disabled. Players can only loot items for job they are actually playing. Cant need on duplicates (ofc). But on the other hand, only items that can be "needed" by at least one party member can drop. If no item that may drop from a particular treasure chest can be "needed", nothing drops at all.

2. One player can only loot one item from particular turn. Although pooling would be somehow possible, but not too impactfull because of only 3 runs per week.

I've said it again and again and i will say it once again. People have been beating Sastasha through turn 4 with df/pug. It won't be long until turn 5 also gets pugged.