Absence of end-game content : the downfall of every MMO.

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Originally Posted by Arriverderci

Don't compare those two, ever. Again, it's over a decade year old games.

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In a decade, developping games still takes more time than playing it, wether you like it or not.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I actually like the fact that I can finish the important stuff (like coil turns 1-4 and capping myth) in a day or two, leaving the rest of the week for either casual play or other games/activities.

MMOs have been consuming my life for about 16 years now. Kind of nice to take it easier now and not be behind the curve. I still get more than my money's worth out of my sub and wouldn't think of quitting due to lack of content.

People are bored of end game because it takes a couple of days to get to level cap for someone who has a little more time on their hands than the adverage person. For people who have less time to waste on games they might be just getting to cap but most of these games appeal to people who like to go full-time in games so oh well lol.

The age of hardcore raiding end-game mmo's died with vanilla wow and it's not coming back.
Todays mmo's are about housing and vanity costumes.
Get used to it, it's here to stay.
At least you have something to tell your grandchildren about "games were a challenge back in my day!"

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Originally Posted by TrickedOutHoro

That's the price you have to pay when you get into an MMO in it's earliest stages.

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Indeed I remember these complaints from every single major MMO in the last +10 years. Even WoW was slammed as doomed to failure because of a lack of end game content..

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Originally Posted by TheMoonflow

The age of hardcore raiding end-game mmo's died with vanilla wow and it's not coming back.
Todays mmo's are about housing and vanity costumes.
Get used to it, it's here to stay.
At least you have something to tell your grandchildren about "games were a challenge back in my day!"

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Really Vanilla was hardcore raiding? Where you could bring 40 people and as long as 15-20 did something resembling what was supposed to be done you could clear the content?

I feel sad for your lack of real hardcore raiding experience.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

Imma just drop this here http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Dungeon emphasizing the "Retail Launch" section.

People need to quit defending the end game yes it is bad and stop saying it isn't.
Stop making new threads about it you're not a snowflake.

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Hardcore versions of low end dungeons hardly counts. According to that page it only had one real endgame raid. FFXIV still seems better off.

This happens because of a lot of people play this game like a race. Without FATEs grind and play doing a bit of everything, this game takes 3 or 4 months at least to reach lvl cap.

Ive been playing since early access, right now Im lvl 36. I do FATEs only if one appears near to me, I run dungeons, farm items, gather, craft...

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Originally Posted by Tool_of_Society

Indeed I remember these complaints from every single major MMO in the last +10 years. Even WoW was slammed as doomed to failure because of a lack of end game content..



Really Vanilla was hardcore raiding? Where you could bring 40 people and as long as 15-20 did something resembling what was supposed to be done you could clear the content?

I feel sad for your lack of real hardcore raiding experience.

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Truth be told I didn't, it's just what I heard, I only raided a little during wrath and DS, but everyone would bang on about how vanilla was harder.
Anyway ,I'm a casual gamer.
And it seems games are being catered more and more towards my personal tastes, so no complaints here.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

Imma just drop this here http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Dungeon emphasizing the "Retail Launch" section.

People need to quit defending the end game yes it is bad and stop saying it isn't.
Stop making new threads about it you're not a snowflake.

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You know that all those "retail launch" dungeons were just harder versions of the same 8 you ran while leveling up, with the addition of only one raid, right? I can't be the only one that sees that.

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Originally Posted by Tool_of_Society

Indeed I remember these complaints from every single major MMO in the last +10 years. Even WoW was slammed as doomed to failure because of a lack of end game content..

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"Really Blizzard! Three months and all you have to give us is Dire Maul and two bugged world bosses! At least fix Ragnaros so he stops breaking weapons on each attempt..."

The good ol' days!

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Originally Posted by rkpost

This happens because of a lot of people play this game like a race. Without FATEs grind and play doing a bit of everything, this game takes 3 or 4 months at least to reach lvl cap.

Ive been playing since early access, right now Im lvl 36. I do FATEs only if one appears near to me, I run dungeons, farm items, gather, craft...

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Not true. Simply via questing and running dungeons as intended you can easily do it in under a month. I did. If leveling is your focus you can do it very quickly without fate grinding. I'll admit I did fate grinding from about 46-49 since the quests clear out, but I could just as easily have done dungeons instead leading to a few more days of leveling at a maximum. Only reason I did that to begin with was to be ready to join my FC's endgame group. If not for that I would never have done it at all. As of today I've been 50 for over a month now so those few levels of fate grinding didn't make a significant difference at all. In no way would it have taken another 1-3 months of dungeons to get those 4 levels. This game has extremely fast leveling.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Not true.

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If you add DoL and DoH, it take more time. For example, some days ago I spent one day farming items that I needed to craft (and I didn't earn xp because were low mobs). Sometimes I don't use my main class for days, because I'm busy with gathering, craft, helping another users or just talking wit other players.

But I hate this game speed, it's not funny burn a game like this in that way.

End game is not the same for everyone. :)

This is the paradigm of the modern theme-park MMO. By blasting everyone to end-game where they are forced into a tiered progression system of gear and content, they create the problem where there is no possible way they can create content as fast as the player-base can consume it. Every single theme-park since 2004 has had people complaining about the same thing, but this is the nature of MMO's in 2013 as sad as it sounds. 2.0 tries to bridge the gap with copious amounts of fan-service and cosmetic things such as houses, but in the end it is all a distraction.

Until there is a shift among developers to try something different, or expand the sandbox offerings like EVE (pretty much the only sandbox) this is how MMO's will continue to look. Frankly, I for one am tired of it and have pretty much given up on the genre. Which is odd because when you look back, it had so much promise and instead, developers have worked themselves into a tiny corner with a concept that is as far away from massive as any I can describe.

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Originally Posted by Aragor

I understand what you mean and I'm not that hardcore neither was I expecting TONS of stuff to do. Still, compare this game to the gold standard : WoW.

Dungeons.
Farming AK or CM VS UBRD/LBRD, Scholo, Stratholme.

Raiding.
Coil : 4 pretty short turns with a 5th broken one.
MC : Over 10 bosses (with much more interesting mechanics let's be honest).

What came in the first serious content patch.
Crystal Tower : can't speak too fast from what we haven't experienced, but from what they've said, it's gonna be welfare gear for those who can't handle Coil.
BWL : how awesome was this place seriously?

My main point isn't really that RIGHT AWAY there wasn't a lot of stuff to do, but mainly that was is in the pipeline for further content patches is futile (housing, dailies) or isn't going to last more than a week (CT). I LOVED that game going from 1 to 50, I'm just disapointed the fun didn't last past that.

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There's so much to point out about this. I'll just start with how you're comparing the two games while PURPOSELY looking at FFXIV in a negative light and ONLY looking at WoW in a positive one. Based on that I'm willing to bet that you weren't really there for WoW launch, or perhaps weren't there for the early stages of those raids. I'll just say, it wasn't as smooth as you think it was.

You might be pointing out that you "can't speak too fast from what we haven't experienced" but you're stating your point as though it were facts anyway. Doomsday talk and all that lol.

Community attitude is another big drawback which leads to the downfall of an mmorpg. :(

Designing a mmo game and single player game only differs in what tools the developers give to the players when dealing with other players. There should be not much difference in content quantity on launch and both genres have possibilities to evolve by dlcs and patches. Only the commitment on making the evolution happen matters.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This game has extremely fast leveling.

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The game is easy and fast to level, I agree.
But one of the main selling points that they plugged a lot, was the job system, and the fact that if you level up more than one job you can change on the fly, so if your party needs a healer, just go whm or sch, or if they need a dps or tank, you can just change with a click of a button.
I think that's a fantastic system, but to fully utilize it you need to get all those jobs to max level.
If leveling was too slow no one would get to experience playing the game and using the job system the way it was intended to be.
As such I think fast leveling is a good thing.

What they need to focus on is adding more ways to level and balancing the options so one way is not more optimal than the others (currently fates)
Because that deters people from leveling other jobs and benifitng from one of the most unique things the game has to offer.

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Originally Posted by rkpost

If you add DoL and DoH, it take more time. For example, some days ago I spent one day farming items that I needed to craft (and I didn't earn xp because were low mobs). Sometimes I don't use my main class for days, because I'm busy with gathering, craft, helping another users or just talking wit other players.

But I hate this game speed, it's not funny burn a game like this in that way.

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It's actually quite normal for people to focus on one and only one class/job. That's behavior that has been around since the beginning. Like that other person said, leveling is quick if people choose to do one thing at a time. That's not really speeding through the game, that's... just playing it. In many ways, it's actually correct to say they're doing it efficiently too. Just like it's correct to say it's efficient to level crafts alongside your class/job, so that you can make your own gear at the same time.

It's speeding through things if you skip and ignore everything just for the purpose of hitting that max level cap. It's speeding through things if you don't give yourself a breather that you would have otherwise done (changed normal behavior/routine for the purpose of finishing something). But just the base concept of doing one thing at a time (or only one thing entirely) is not speeding through stuff.

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Originally Posted by sasakusaku

You cannot be seriously comparing food to a game can you?

One is something you must do or DIE and the other is for entertainment.

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Way to miss the point, which is to illustrate why using the size of the user base as an indicator of quality is generally a terrible idea, regardless of whether it’s a MMO, food, or any consumer goods.

But I guess you already knew that, which I presume is the reason you conveniently skirted the part where I noted that by your logic, Candy Crush would be the best game ever.

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Let's get to the point, there is a reason why that other game got so big and still has at least 6x the subs than here (or any MMO) and one of them is not the lack of end game content; even at LAUNCH.

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There seems to be plenty of former WoW players here who disagree with your assertion that there was no lack of endgame content at launch in WoW.

Also, you seem to be implying that WoW’s success was due to the abundance of end-game content at launch (a matter which seems to be rather disputed), when it was in fact due to a much more diverse combination of factors such as well-recognized IP, much higher accessibility for casual players compared to its contemporaries, both in game design and hardware requirements. If end-game content is what determines the success and longevity of a MMO, then EQ would still be king.

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but I think to myself…why does it have to be this way? I for one am tired of that excuse, it’s used far to often (every MMO now it seems) and there is no reason other than monetary ones why that cannot change

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I hate to break it to you, but that little reason that noted there? That’s a big one – in fact, it’s the only thing that matters. Game companies aren’t in the business to entertain you for free, they’re here to make money, nothing more, and nothing less. You can go ahead and spent $50 million and 5 years to develop your super content-rich MMO if you have the money, but good luck if you’re expecting someone else to pick up the tabs for a project like that, especially for something as risky as MMOs.

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Originally Posted by rkpost

If you add DoL and DoH, it take more time. For example, some days ago I spent one day farming items that I needed to craft (and I didn't earn xp because were low mobs). Sometimes I don't use my main class for days, because I'm busy with gathering, craft, helping another users or just talking wit other players.

But I hate this game speed, it's not funny burn a game like this in that way.

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Well obviously if you do something other than leveling your primary class it will take longer. Thus why I said "If leveling is your focus you can do it very quickly without fate grinding."

I must have said this a million times by now

1. Buff Dungeon EXP

Fates are insanely boring, spamming 1 AoE all the way to 50 is the root of

-Bad 50's
-Bad leveling experience
-Bad design concept

2. Make Queue-For-All at level 50, down-scaling 50's to lower dungeons will help those stuck on the story queues (my friend was in queue for 2 hours last night trying to do AV) and reward 50's 100 tomes for completing the dungeon (excluding story primals, those are 10-15-20)

This is basically every MMO since WoW lol. I just hope developers in general are starting to realize that what they have is a bad model to begin with. Games should be about the journey, not about endgame only. It should have horizontal progression as well as vertical to avoid the whole "play for a couple of weeks and then wait for the next patch". Not to mention there should be a whole world out there to explore, where there are dangers, there is a purpose to exploring because you never know what you might or might not find out there and it should take time because it is so huge and there is so much to see. As well as having ways to give more power to players in making content for ourselves because there is no way developers can keep up with the pace otherwise. EQN/Titan I am rooting for you!

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Originally Posted by TrickedOutHoro

That's the price you have to pay when you get into an MMO in it's earliest stages.

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WOW's release raid had over 3 times the bosses of coil and 4 end game dungeons. This was all at RELEASE, and a game from 2004, almost a DECADE ago. I expect better in a decade of the MMO genre being refined and redone.

This game has ZERO excuse, and this "but all mmos release with zero content!" excuse doesn't work at all. You know why? All unsuccessful MMO's release with little to no end game content, the ones that do release with a lot, end up being massively successful. Do you want this game to succeed? Then why are we ok with little end game content at release when that is exactly why SWTOR/Tera/etc failed miserably and went F2p - from the lack of end game.

You don't design a game that "starts at the level cap"(literally stated by yoshi-p) then release the game, and have end game have the least amount of content in the game with the least amount of things to do. What the hell were they thinking?

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Originally Posted by Davionx

You will never have enough content if you play MMOs like they are a full-time job. Those days are over. Mmos are designed for casual players now a days for good or for bad. I suggest finding a different hobby.

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No, even casual players are running out of content. This game has essentially 3 hours of content per WEEK.

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Originally Posted by Sayura_

I have to disagree. My friends and I (full-time jobs) in recent mmos got 1.5 years out of Aion, 6mo out of SWTOR, 1 year out of GW2, and we're feeling the boredom now after 2mo in FFXIV. We're waiting it out until the new patch because we do like the game but you can't say we have to "pay the price" when competing mmos don't see these issues 2 months in. IMO all those games had some sort of pvp so our interest was kept.

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Sorry, but I can't take the opinion of anyone who got a year out of GW2 seriously.

I'm semi-joking, but I was there from the start of GW2 and that game had 0 end game. There was nothing there to keep players engaged, and the dungeons were awful.

Pvp was ok, but imba and mostly a Zerg fest.

The others I can't say anything about, but every other mmo has had similar issues this close to launch.

Is it the absence of end-game content or the presence of no-life crybabies who plow through content 10x faster than the majority of the user base which causes the downfall of MMOs?

Can anyone who is complaining about content even describe the story arch of FFXIV? I doubt most can.

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Originally Posted by Sybreed

You know, funnily enough I forgot about FF XI when I was talking about WoW and EQ. The great thing is that my point still stands, as FF XI lasted the test of time by being a huge bitch of a grind with massive timesinks.

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Mmos don't need massive timesinks to work. SWG pre cu worked fine and was a fun sandboxish mmo to boot, great socialization in that game back in the day.

Let me just conveniently forget the previous version was running for 2 years and plenty of people had plenty of time to get most if not all classes to 50, and that by the end leveling was pretty fast to do simply with leves and one beastman stronghold, not even considering the fact you could also plainly PL from 1 to 50 in a day. I'll also forget the fact the main quest and sidequests in ARR provide plenty of EXP so those people who only had one class to level from 1.0 could do it in a week or two, leaving only the endgame gear grind and tome collection which can completed in time to start clearing Coils in about a month or less.

Nah I'll just yell rushers once again and instantly win any argument with my superior logic.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

Sorry, but I can't take the opinion of anyone who got a year out of GW2 seriously.

I'm semi-joking, but I was there from the start of GW2 and that game had 0 end game. There was nothing there to keep players engaged, and the dungeons were awful.

Pvp was ok, but imba and mostly a Zerg fest.

The others I can't say anything about, but every other mmo has had similar issues this close to launch.

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GW2 had spvp and wvw at launch, whether you enjoyed it or not it was there.

I love it... the content exists and yet there is the "No endgame!" cries.

ONE. ONE SINGLE group has cleared Turn 5 legit. Why aren't you doing Coil also? I bet my left leg you haven't cleared it. If you don't do the existing content, then you have no right to complain there is no content.

You will never have enough content if you play MMOs like they are a full-time job. Those days are over. Mmos are designed for casual players now a days for good or for bad. I suggest finding a different hobby.

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Originally Posted by JayvirDeforte

I love it... the content exists and yet there is the "No endgame!" cries.

ONE. ONE SINGLE group has cleared Turn 5 legit. Why aren't you doing Coil also? I bet my left leg you haven't cleared it. If you don't do the existing content, then you have no right to complain there is no content.

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Can't do turn 5 because I'm capped every week on Myth like everyone else who is not geared enough.

Why don't I have full myth set yet? Because I DIDN'T rush.

1 turn of coils isn't endgame.

Meh, honestly it is pretty disheartening. The only thing i'll have to look forward to by then is the Extreme Primals. Then again the idea of a 24 man raid sounds awesome too bad it's geared for post titan/pre-coil. We'll most likely down TT by then so eh.. Looks like I might have to find another hobby for a while.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

THE GAME IS TWO MONTHS OLD.

ugh.

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And was in beta for how long? You're saying the couldn't have the game ready to play by now?

Yes let's compare this game to one that's been out for 10 years and has 5 expansions.

Here's the situation: You buy a box of chocolates and eat them all in one go without even attempting to enjoy them or make them last, then you complain to Cadbury that they don't put enough chocolate in their boxes.

The curse of the wrathbabies strikes again

People who got in WoW when it was 3-4 years old (and severily dumbed down) and fail to realise that a new game and a 4 yeers old one (with 2 expansions) aren't the same thing.
You people are killing the genre

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Originally Posted by Davionx

You will never have enough content if you play MMOs like they are a full-time job. Those days are over. Mmos are designed for casual players now a days for good or for bad. I suggest finding a different hobby.

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Correct, though there are games that still cater to 'hardcore', it ¡s just that they are too hard for wrathbabies

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Originally Posted by Sayura_

Can't do turn 5 because I'm capped every week on Myth like everyone else who is not geared enough.

Why don't I have full myth set yet? Because I DIDN'T rush.

1 turn of coils isn't endgame.

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You don't need a full set of myth gear to run Coils dum-dumb. You need a raiding group that is organised and plays well to tackle the content.

If you haven't even done raiding, and haven't even completed more than Turn 1 of Coils what the hell are you talking about? Learn to play your class instead of relying on 300 myth a week to buffer your poor playing abilities.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

Yes let's compare this game to one that's been out for 10 years and has 5 expansions.

Here's the situation: You buy a box of chocolates and eat them all in one go without even attempting to enjoy them or make them last, then you complain to Cadbury that they don't put enough chocolate in their boxes.

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Incase you missed it:

WOW's release raid had over 3 times the bosses of coil and 4 end game dungeons. This was all at RELEASE, and a game from 2004, almost a DECADE ago. I expect better in a decade of the MMO genre being refined and redone.

Decade old MMO and had much more content at release than this game.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Incase you missed it:

WOW's release raid had over 3 times the bosses of coil and 4 end game dungeons. This was all at RELEASE, and a game from 2004, almost a DECADE ago. I expect better in a decade of the MMO genre being refined and redone.

Decade old MMO and had much more content at release than this game.

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You math seems off...