Scholars - missing the point

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Originally Posted by Celsius

I've finished turn 4 with SCH/SCH and it went amazing. we CAN aoe heal enrage and the tank heals are amazing with 2 sch's and 2 eos's it was pretty easy. dont underestimate SCH+SHC guys! just need to be coordinated

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Really? Wow, looking forward to that when I get SCH *^*

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Originally Posted by YanDere

Really? Wow, looking forward to that when I get SCH *^*

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Yep! its very enjoyable. almost always a 10% SS down and keeping eye/virus on rotate with our summoner as-well. i used to be an avid person to agree with SCH buffs but now im not so sure. we are VERY strong. all you need to get is your BiS and your pretty much set. so for any potential sch's out here. get your af2 chest FIRST then get a vanya hat of healing and slot materia into it then fill with allagan pieces from there.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Yep! its very enjoyable. almost always a 10% SS down and keeping eye/virus on rotate with our summoner as-well. i used to be an avid person to agree with SCH buffs but now im not so sure. we are VERY strong. all you need to get is your BiS and your pretty much set. so for any potential sch's out here. get your af2 chest FIRST then get a vanya hat of healing and slot materia into it then fill with allagan pieces from there.

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Well, I assume you balance the little loss of healing power with the big dps gain due to double buffs. I really love SCH, after BLM (Swiftcast, you know XD), it's gonna be my next job :D

At the final stage of Turn 4 we switch to eos eos so we can steady her and and have Whispering dawn on rotate and blow our rouse at the same time we then switch out between tank heal and succor so it goes

Me: Succor
Them:heal tank
Them:succor
Me:heal tank

its also ALOT easier now that i can actually tell eos to heal while i am. but yes selene is a huge DPS gain *_* yay a new SCH <3

I just don't like how Scholars are defined - people say White Mages are reactive, someone gets damaged someone gets healed, and Scholars are preventative, we bubble, they don't take damage. It would be true, if we could constantly bubble people without going oom. In 8 man content I never bother using Adlo on the tanks because one hit will eat up the damage anyways unless I crit, which you can never rely on. I feel like we need some more utility to really fill the role we are supposed to be. Free procs on succor/adlo, proccing guaranteed crits with adlo/succor, that sort of thing. Maybe make our overheals bubble a target for the amount overhealed so there is actually a use in spamming embrace manually other than quicker heals.

As it stands we are the ultimate reactionary healing class. We spam Embrace manually so when the tank takes damage he instantly has a heal on him, then we use Physick as quick as we can. In 4 man content Adlo starts proving its worth a little more when the damage is a bit toned town and the AoE damage is actually preventable with some bubbling. In 8 mans the best it's used for pre-casting succor before AoE damage to prevent damage, and using it after so the WHM doesn't have to use Medica as many times.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Scholar, but the mechanics so far are a little underwhelming, our traits don't do anything for us, and our class defining feature - bubbles - are a little underwhelming, unless you crit

I disagree with you, Peaches, that Adlo is useless in 8 man content because it's immediately eaten up.

Damage prevented is damage never taken.

That's damage that never ate into your tank's healthbar. That's damage that you don't have to heal up later.

Is it expensive? Yeah. Why is it expensive? Because half of the Adlo spell is a guaranteed fully-effective heal. That's also why Succor is expensive. Any time I heal as a WHM, part of my healing will almost certainly go to Overhealing. If I use Medica, that chance is greatly increased. If I use Medica II, it's basically guaranteed. But while the actual heal part of the spell may go to overhealing, the Adlo bubble itself never will. And that is why it's expensive. That's also why it's far more powerful than you realize.

Yes, you are right that damage not taken is damage you don't need to heal. But when I'm healing for 500 with Adlo for what, two-three times the cost of Physick, I'm better off just using Physick>Physick instead of Adlo>Physick. If you're using Adlo on tanks in Titan you're gonna go OOM really quickly, because half the time you have to spam heals to keep them topped up. The ONLY time I use it on a tank in that is right before Mountain Buster as a safeguard. Other than that it's not much worth it.

But like I said I use it all the time in 4 man content, because that 500 shield can actually take a hit or three. In 4 man content, using Adlo can spare you having to heal for a solid 5-15 seconds sometimes, actually gaining you MP over Physick. Just not so in healing intensive fights like Titan.

I use Aldo in healing intensive fights such as Titan because the other healer will be curing them to full and I give them a shield. If you have two SCHs then just assign one of you to Aldo duty and that solves the problem of not stacking. I also don't have MP issues even without a Bard for the Titan fight by doing this. If the tank doesn't have a shield on I Aldo.

If that is the case you would be using nothing except Adlo. You use Adlo once, the next hit will use up the bubble, which means you have to use it again. That's like 400-600mp blown in two hits (can't remember exact cost).

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Originally Posted by peaches

If that is the case you would be using nothing except Adlo. You use Adlo once, the next hit will use up the bubble, which means you have to use it again. That's like 400-600mp blown in two hits (can't remember exact cost).

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Adlo is the only spell effect other than Stoneskin that gives Effective Health. Unlike Stoneskin, it can Crit and scales independently from tank gear.

And actually, while I'm on the subject...

Adlo and Succor are not meant to be spammed. That is why their price is high. Like Medica, Medica II, Cure III and even Cure II (depending on gear level), they are meant to be spells you use under certain circumstances.

White Mages and Scholars are good at different things, and this is intentional. If Scholar were as good at straight up healing as White Mages are, no one would bring anything else. Why would you? You'd have a Scholar who brings extra DPS + Effective Health + Amazing Healing + great mana regen. So why would you ever bring a White Mage, who has only one spell with a long cast for Effective Health, no other bubbles, can't really DPS and heal at the same time due to...mana concerns. Yeah, all they have going for them is rocking healing. If you give that to Scholars, there's no reason to bring White Mages. Ever.

Part of being an Effective Health healer is learning the phases of a fight. It means knowing when you need to get your bubbles out, and when it's safe to let the other healer (or healers) heal up the damage that's already been taken. Healers whose focus is on Effective Health do not do well in content they have not yet learned, because bubbles really only shine when you put them out before the damage happens. Which requires you to know the fight. However, once you know when that incoming damage is going to happen, you're untouchable.

Again, Adlo and Succor are not meant to be spammed. That's why they're expensive. They're meant to be used at the right time during a fight.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Adlo is the only spell effect other than Stoneskin that gives Effective Health. Unlike Stoneskin, it can Crit and scales independently from tank gear.

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I know how it works, it just seems a little underwhelming for the cost, unless you crit. And most of our gear has spellspeed over crit. I probably wouldn't have any complaints about Adlo if I could get a nice high crit rate, but until I get full Vanya and slot it with all crit materia there's not much I can do. Does Succor benefit from the double bubble on crit? I remember seeing a thread about it, but never saw if there was a definitive answer. If our bubbles rely on crit, I feel our class should have more use for crit than just Adlo and or Succor, like maybe giving Physick some kind of proc on a crit as well.

Because seriously, I can literally SPAM Physick over and over and over, and it takes forever to run out of mp. If I manually spam Embrace sometimes I only have to Physick once in a while, letting me regen more MP than I use. If I were to make sure the tank ALWAYS had Adlo on him I would run out of mp so quick, even with a bard around.

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Originally Posted by peaches

I know how it works, it just seems a little underwhelming for the cost, unless you crit. And most of our gear has spellspeed over crit. I probably wouldn't have any complaints about Adlo if I could get a nice high crit rate, but until I get full Vanya and slot it with all crit materia there's not much I can do. Does Succor benefit from the double bubble on crit? I remember seeing a thread about it, but never saw if there was a definitive answer. If our bubbles rely on crit, I feel our class should have more use for crit than just Adlo and or Succor, like maybe giving Physick some kind of proc on a crit as well.

Because seriously, I can literally SPAM Physick over and over and over, and it takes forever to run out of mp. If I manually spam Embrace sometimes I only have to Physick once in a while, letting me regen more MP than I use. If I were to make sure the tank ALWAYS had Adlo on him I would run out of mp so quick, even with a bard around.

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Succor does not get double shield power from critting, only Adlo.

You use Adlo when u are behind in healing. It is basically a Cure II because the shield will absorb some dmg and the next Physick and Embrace will top tank off.
You can also use it to prevent incoming dmg if you know when it is coming (Titan's big swipe, MB,....Ifrit's Fire breath).
Or you can use it on low hp people (under geared or under weakness) to prevent death from unavoidable dmg.
The skill is expensive because when it crit, it is like a 3-4k effective hp for tank. It is also a temporary Hp boost that has lower cast time and more versatile than Stone skin.

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Originally Posted by peaches

I know how it works, it just seems a little underwhelming for the cost, unless you crit. And most of our gear has spellspeed over crit. I probably wouldn't have any complaints about Adlo if I could get a nice high crit rate, but until I get full Vanya and slot it with all crit materia there's not much I can do. Does Succor benefit from the double bubble on crit? I remember seeing a thread about it, but never saw if there was a definitive answer. If our bubbles rely on crit, I feel our class should have more use for crit than just Adlo and or Succor, like maybe giving Physick some kind of proc on a crit as well.

Because seriously, I can literally SPAM Physick over and over and over, and it takes forever to run out of mp. If I manually spam Embrace sometimes I only have to Physick once in a while, letting me regen more MP than I use. If I were to make sure the tank ALWAYS had Adlo on him I would run out of mp so quick, even with a bard around.

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But you're not supposed to be able to spam Adlo or Succor. That's why they're expensive. That's also why you can spam Physick for forever - you're supposed to be able to. And they are likely factoring Embrace in to cover the "need" for a "Cure II" type heal (i.e. Physick + Embrace would be roughly equivalent to Cure II, probably a bit less considering Embrace is free).

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Originally Posted by Alu79

4k? Um, I don't think those are accurate numbers :x

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Had an Adlo crit for about 860 today, which is a...1720 shield? I'm not in the best gear, though, I just got my SCH to 50 finally today. lol.

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Originally Posted by Miridori

You use Adlo when u are behind in healing. It is basically a Cure II because the shield will absorb some dmg and the next Physick and Embrace will top tank off.
You can also use it to prevent incoming dmg if you know when it is coming (Titan's big swipe, MB,....Ifrit's Fire breath).
Or you can use it on low hp people (under geared or under weakness) to prevent death from unavoidable dmg.
The skill is expensive because when it crit, it is like a 3-4k effective hp for tank. It is also a temporary Hp boost that has lower cast time and more versatile than Stone skin.

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4k? Um, I don't think those are accurate numbers :x

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Originally Posted by Alu79

4k? Um, I don't think those are accurate numbers :x

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My Adlo already crit for around 1k1 and that is just full DL and Relic +1. I imagine getting 4k with some allagan and myth pieces ( which a lot of people already have) is very possible

I know, and I understand this. That was mostly a reply to Maku who said he constantly keeps Adlo on the tank. It's much too expensive for that.

I understand HOW to use Adlo and I don't have any problem with healing, I'm just saying that we don't really match our description as preventative healers. We don't bubble anywhere near often enough to be defined by it - like some of you have said, its something you can use to catch up on your healing, like a Cure II, or when there isn't super high damage to get a break for a second, similar to Regen.

I love my Scholar and my fairy, but there really isn't much to healing right now. 90% of the time, you do nothing but Physick. Adlo is used on occasion, Lustrate is our panic button, or a quick way to top off someone without spending much time curing. I don't know, I just feel like healing in general (I haven't got very far into Conjurer yet mind) is lacking.

"Spam Physick" isn't exactly a complex healing system. I've said this in another post, but I really feel that we need a bit of a second look.

First, we need traits that actually affect us as a Scholar - and not just the generic "increase damage and healing by 10%" traits. We need out INT traits to turn into Mind, of even Piety, or something. We need more mechanics. Change Sacred Soil to make it either so when you are under the effects of SS your next is a succor is double potency, and possibly free, or only the people under the effects of FF get the double potency, or guaranteed crit.

Currently the 20% free Succor is.. Nice, I guess - a free Succor is always good - 20% chance isn't really an incentive to use SS. This change would give SS a really good reason to use it. Right now, while it DOES have it's use, in general I find myself saving my Aetherflow for Lustrate, and using the extra stacks I have when the Aetherflow CD comes up on Energy Drain to top off my MP along with the 20% mp from Aether. 10% damage reduction IS nice, but this change would go a long way to making us TRUE preventative healers. Imagine, you could actually prevent 1/4-1/2 of the damage of a Tummult. It would make us have an AoE heal on par with Medica 2, and it would take an Aetherflow stack so it has a fairly heavy cost, plus the time it takes to place SS. Not to mention the 30s CD on SS, so its not like we could spam and abuse this, it would be something you do to prepare for massive AoE damage.

Going along with our theme of Crits, I really think we need more use of crit chance than just Adlo. It seems like a lot of stats to invest in for ONE ability. I suggest there be a trait, or something that gives Physick - the move we use 80-90% of the time - a 10-15% chance to... possibly give us a guaranteed crit on the next Adlo, and maybe free?

I know a lot of people will say these suggested changes would make us OP, but really I think they would just make us on par with WHMs, just in our own way. Currently most content is able to be solo healed by a WHM, or a dual Scholar team, but (most likely) impossible to solo heal as a Scholar, and very, very difficult for dual Scholars. You can do it if everybody plays perfectly and avoids AoE as much as possible, but trying to heal up massive AoE damage takes quite a few Succors, which eats your MP. You can't really count on Eos' Whispering Dawn either, because 90% of the time she blows the cooldown, or even if she doesn't she often gets knocked around the field, and it can be difficult to place her while concentrating on healing everyone back up.

Not sure why you're so worried about MP. We're not white mages, we can be lot more generous when it comes to healing. Sure if you sit there spamming Adloquium and Succor you'll run out quickly, but that's why those aren't our only two spells. I can easily keep up Succor up most of the time against Titan as long as I'm using Aetherflow on cooldown and tossing the occasional Energy Drain if I run low. I usually use Adloquium on the tank if two or more people took damage so I can buy myself a little more time to heal them, or if a big hit is coming. Normal Physick and Embrace are just fine, which you should always be casting, specifically Embrace since it costs no MP.

I'm usually not worries about MP, but there have been a lot of circumstances where I have gone OOM. Most of them are in bad groups where people are wiping and I'm wasting MP on 2-5 Resurrections, or the other healer is dead and I'm trying to keep the tank and the party alive through heavy damage, or both lol.

In Titan, I'm scared to use my Aetherflow stacks on anything other than Lustrate. People will always get hit a few times by something and need a quick pop, but for the most part its the Mountain Buster, or what ever it's called. When I did Titan we had a Warrior tank, and he announced on Vent when he was about to use Buster. When he announced it was incoming I noticed there was intense damage where I essentially had to spam Embrace and Physick as fast as I could to ensure he was at full health before it hit, and try to Adlo before the hit too, and save Lustrate for when it DOES hit, to get him up from the 1000 or so health it leaves him with. I'm not the most experienced in that fight, but sometimes it seems like he only does Buster once, sometimes two or more times in the span of a a minute or two it feels like. I've been in the situation where I was running low-ish on MP from curing Tummults, had just used my Aetherflow stacks healing up from a Buster then popped Aether's CD, used it on someone hit by the mechanics, then have one or no stacks of Aetherflow left, Aether on 30s + CD, and the tank announced another Buster incoming, and all I can do is think "Oh Sh**...", and try to keep him cured up as much as possible.

When there's a bard around of course I never have to worry about MP, no matter how much I cure, but I can't/don't like relying on them. Too often there is only one bard and he dies from some mechanics and I'll need to blow my Swiftcast and a chunk of my MP rezzing the other healer or something, and be left with not much MP to cure with. I know my problems are caused by players making mistakes, but still, it happens often enough for it to be a concern.

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Originally Posted by peaches

In Titan, I'm scared to use my Aetherflow stacks on anything other than Lustrate. People will always get hit a few times by something and need a quick pop, but for the most part its the Mountain Buster, or what ever it's called. When I did Titan we had a Warrior tank, and he announced on Vent when he was about to use Buster. When he announced it was incoming I noticed there was intense damage where I essentially had to spam Embrace and Physick as fast as I could to ensure he was at full health before it hit, and try to Adlo before the hit too, and save Lustrate for when it DOES hit, to get him up from the 1000 or so health it leaves him with. I'm not the most experienced in that fight, but sometimes it seems like he only does Buster once, sometimes two or more times in the span of a a minute or two it feels like. I've been in the situation where I was running low-ish on MP from curing Tummults, had just used my Aetherflow stacks healing up from a Buster then popped Aether's CD, used it on someone hit by the mechanics, then have one or no stacks of Aetherflow left, Aether on 30s + CD, and the tank announced another Buster incoming, and all I can do is think "Oh Sh**...", and try to keep him cured up as much as possible.

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Peaches...where is the other healer? o_O Why are you the only one covering the tank and the raid? o_O

I would like to have more SCH perspectives on Titan and advices.
Anyone?

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I would like to have more SCH perspectives on Titan and advices.
Anyone?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Scholar-Guide

There you go.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Peaches...where is the other healer? o_O Why are you the only one covering the tank and the raid? o_O

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I try to discuss healing roles with other healers, and they just tell me to go free for all. So when the tank announced Buster incoming and I see his health dropping rapidly before the attack even comes in I do everything I can because I don't know what the other healer is doing. If I don't go all out on that, and the other healer fails to perform then the tank dies from lack of heals. I just treat everything as if I'm healing solo usually, while hoping the other healer does his job as well

I don't know why some scholars complain about it a lot and some don't. Normally, as a white mage, I work with another white mage in our FC, but he has been working extra last week or so, last night we needed a healer for an Ifrit HM run for a couple of our new 50s. We used a scholar. I was shocked, othen a medica after the nails and a couple cures here and there on the tank. I didn't have to do anything. Thier shields blocked crap loads of damage. It wasn't like he was using physick or anything and jsut doing it before me, people just weren't taking the damage. Clearly he knew how to play scholar - made me want to try it out even more (currently at arcanist 28).

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Originally Posted by BrodyAlgana

I don't know why some scholars complain about it a lot and some don't. Normally, as a white mage, I work with another white mage in our FC, but he has been working extra last week or so, last night we needed a healer for an Ifrit HM run for a couple of our new 50s. We used a scholar. I was shocked, othen a medica after the nails and a couple cures here and there on the tank. I didn't have to do anything. Thier shields blocked crap loads of damage. It wasn't like he was using physick or anything and jsut doing it before me, people just weren't taking the damage. Clearly he knew how to play scholar - made me want to try it out even more (currently at arcanist 28).

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Well, you were quite cruel, battling the poor little Ifrit with the powahful couple SCH-WHM XD
With Titan, there is a far greater difference between 2WHM and SCH-WHM, because 2WHM end up overlapping their heals and messing up things, while a SCH can also buff dps or hps.

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Originally Posted by peaches

I try to discuss healing roles with other healers, and they just tell me to go free for all. So when the tank announced Buster incoming and I see his health dropping rapidly before the attack even comes in I do everything I can because I don't know what the other healer is doing. If I don't go all out on that, and the other healer fails to perform then the tank dies from lack of heals. I just treat everything as if I'm healing solo usually, while hoping the other healer does his job as well

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Wait, so were you pugging this fight? Because that's the only situation in which I can imagine a co-healer being like, "Yeah, whatever, dude, I don't want to do my job correctly and I don't want you to do your job correctly, either."

If you were pugging the fight, stop. If you weren't pugging the fight, slug your co-healer in the face. Healing is a team sport, and if the other healer in your raid isn't a team player, they need a knuckle sandwich. What should have happened is...you pre-shield the tank, and set him up for the mountain buster. The WHM in your group Stoneskins the tank (if possible) and stands ready with a Cure II or Cure III (I guess if it's realllllly scary) to immediately burst him back up from the brink. If you know the fight, you can actually work with Titan's cast/swing timers to make sure the cast goes off right as the damage goes out.

SCHs prevent damage, whereas WHMs cure damage. As simple as that.

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Originally Posted by LordNarmo

SCHs prevent damage, whereas WHMs cure damage. As simple as that.

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To be more precise:
WHM heal a lot, prevent slowly, don't buff.
SCH heal well enough but faster, prevent a little less but a lot faster, and buff by a whole lot dps and hps.
WHM is "I keep you alive"
SCH is "I get the best out of you while supporting your HPs"
They both are fantastic jobs, I love them <3

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Originally Posted by YanDere

To be more precise:
WHM heal a lot, prevent slowly, don't buff.
SCH heal well enough but faster, prevent a little less but a lot faster, and buff by a whole lot dps and hps.
WHM is "I keep you alive"
SCH is "I get the best out of you while supporting your HPs"
They both are fantastic jobs, I love them <3

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Can you explain the buff by a whole lot dps/hps? What buffs? Eos heal potency buff for 20% on a 2 minute cd or Selene spell speed OR skill speed (never both at same time) for a measly 30% of your spell/skill speed stat? You know that Selene's buff is based on the stat on your character sheet, it is not comparable to Blood Lust from WoW.. It looks at your stat and adds 30% to it. It isn't much at all to be frank.

Also, how do we heal faster? We heal for less if multiple people have taken dmg so it takes us longer to top someone off. If we are talking a single person then sure we probably will if we chain Phys+Embrace.
It would be more accurate to say we heal less than a WHM, prevent a lot more than a WHM, and sometimes buff a bit if we have Selene out.

Also, you will only ever have one of those buffs active at any given time.

I am going to get flamed for this, but... since I have run with some GODLY Scholars ... maybe its just some scholars don't get the point of thier job or don't know their job that well. Oh right... that was the point of this thread :P

One thing they all seem to agree on is.. pet UI needs improving so do that... but anything else really changes the point ...

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Originally Posted by TeddyPrime

You can stop double healing someone by discussing beforehand if someone should focus on one of the tanks (if you have two) or if one takes care of the tank and the other focuses on the DPS.

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Damn straight, TEDDY!

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Originally Posted by Alu79

It would be more accurate to say we heal less than a WHM, prevent a lot more than a WHM, and sometimes buff a bit if we have Selene out.

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It's exactly what I meant in my comment O.O
WHM heal more than SCH
SCH prevent less but faster, so they can prevent during the battle while WHM can just use Stoneskin at the start to avoid initial aggro
SCH buff stats. But don't underestimate 30% skill speed, because 6 dps + 1 tank with a 30% skill speed buff deal a lot more dps.
Garuda is 10 minutes with SCH-WHM, 15 with WHM-WHM.