The level link between Jobs and Classes

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Originally Posted by Zyph

It's against you. First of all, this "too many jobs" concept is for the devs to decide. If they feel there's no more room for new classes/jobs, they'll stop. This whole "going to happen" thing is something you cannot possibly know.

As for right now, there's plenty of ways to make new jobs FEEL unique even if their performance and raw numbers are similar to other jobs on paper. See the twenty two unique jobs that XI has.

They will have an extremely hard time pulling this off, however, if multiple jobs use the same base class.

Incompatibility? Seriously? I have no idea what you're getting at.

Also level requirement? For what?

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FFXI actually has a logistic nightmare.. maybe you weren't aware of that.. so thats why i thought you where for me

Also FFXI has you limited to one sub job - classes are limited to none.

Because the -only- way to make a job unique in FFXIV (1.0 at least) is to make a class. And every class shares all of its skills. Its even worse of an issue then FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

It's against you. First of all, this "too many jobs" concept is for the devs to decide. If they feel there's no more room for new classes/jobs, they'll stop. This whole "going to happen" thing is something you cannot possibly know.

As for right now, there's plenty of ways to make new jobs FEEL unique even if their performance and raw numbers are similar to other jobs on paper. See the twenty two unique jobs that XI has.

They will have an extremely hard time pulling this off, however, if multiple jobs use the same base class.

Also level requirement? For what?

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Butthurt?

Jeez. Why so offended?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

FFXI actually has a logistic nightmare.. maybe you weren't aware of that.. so thats why i thought you where for me

Also FFXI has you limited to one sub job - classes are limited to none.

Because the -only- way to make a job unique in FFXIV (1.0 at least) is to make a class. And every class shares all of its skills. Its even worse of an issue then FFXI.

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FFXI was not a logistical nightmare save for community fueled stigmas and SE not doing enough to dispel these stigmas. The reason it was not a logistical nightmare of sameyness was for the exact reason you listed. Jobs could only use one subjob.

But now you're saying that every class shares all it's skills in XIV. Really? I really loved using Life Surge on my Marauder and being completely invincible. Or remember that time the Pugilist in your party main healed with Cura and Curaga?

Yes, FFXIV 1.0 was not a logistical nightmare because skills and spells were limited based on class. You could only get really basic, non game breaking skills from other classes. There is no reason that would change in 2.0 with the addition of more classes.

Also, I think you really need to take a look at your use of the word "unique." You say that using abilities from other classes makes you "unique?" Well no, that just makes you more similar to the class you're borrowing the abilities from.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

FFXI was not a logistical nightmare save for community fueled stigmas and SE not doing enough to dispel these stigmas. The reason it was not a logistical nightmare of sameyness was for the exact reason you listed. Jobs could only use one subjob.

But now you're saying that every class shares all it's skills in XIV. Really? I really loved using Life Surge on my Marauder and being completely invincible. Or remember that time the Pugilist in your party main healed with Cura and Curaga?

Yes, FFXIV 1.0 was not a logistical nightmare because skills and spells were limited based on class. You could only get really basic, non game breaking skills from other classes. There is no reason that would change in 2.0 with the addition of more classes.

Also, I think you really need to take a look at your use of the word "unique." You say that a using abilities from other classes makes you "unique?" Well no, that just makes you more similar to the class you're borrowing the abilities from.

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Perhaps you dont understand the context I mean for unique. The only way to make a job not a copy pasta of other classes and just feel like "5 abilities" is to make a whole dedicated class for it.

Otherwise the theme isnt in sync and isnt unique in other words it becomes a "copy pasta".

Classes do not block their good skills only the best ones - the more classes are around the harder it will be to balance as unexpected combinations will become OP, or others UP when you figure they shouldn't be. Too much blending - pretty much how FFXIV was in the very beginning but it will only happen later after many classes have been added because they want each job to feel appropriate. If you purposely are designing classes to only share their useless abilities then the class itself is useless and you should just move to the job system only.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

The only way to make a job not a copy pasta of other classes and just feel like "5 abilities" is to make a whole dedicated class for it.

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That's what I'm saying. I think we're on the same page here.

Yes, there could arise a situation where a skill combination could become OP. But that's why SE has internal playtesters. Then there are people who's whole job is to analyze combinations of skills and determine if they should be balanced or not, or even completely revised. Yes they will make mistakes, and yes something is going to get nerfed in the live version, but that's an MMO for ya'.

A sane company would not let "too many jobs" flood their game unless they were dead sure they could balance them to the players' satisfaction. Let's hope SE remains sane.

Honestly, in order to cut down on this clutter of abilities, they could just get rid of classes and allow jobs to pick their two sub-classes and be able to switch their choices around at an aetheryte or something.

But yeah, basically, new jobs should be tied to new classes.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.

Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.

Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'.

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it has nothing to do with being "stuck in 2002" it has to do with the fact that literally every class played exactly the same and their were a select number of skills everyone used since they made for the fastest grinding of coblyns. it was real dumb. THM tank anyone? the system was fine? really? u say it gave freedom but it just pidgeonholed u in to leveling certain classes for certain skills so you could solo effectively. (before classes there was no real content to balance around) before jobs it was just zerg world nms with a thm tank.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

That's what I'm saying. I think we're on the same page here.

Yes, there could arise a situation where a skill combination could become OP. But that's why SE has internal playtesters. Then there are people who's whole job is to analyze combinations of skills and determine if they should be balanced or not, or even completely revised. Yes they will make mistakes, and yes something is going to get nerfed in the live version, but that's an MMO for ya'.

A sane company would not let "too many jobs" flood their game unless they were dead sure they could balance them to the players' satisfaction. Let's hope SE remains sane.

Honestly, in order to cut down on this clutter of abilities, they could just get rid of classes and allow jobs to pick their two sub-classes and be able to switch their choices around at an aetheryte or something.

But yeah, basically, new jobs should be tied to new classes.

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Ah I see, I cant say "I know there will be big issues" but I do definitely fear it with the current system - that classes will start to get in the way.

But I think it would be crazy not to worry.. just because its a system that once set in place cant really be taken back out.

I'm sure Yoshida has thought about this, a lot. But I want Yoshida to know at least some of its players are worried, so he can either make bigger decisions if wanted, think about it if he didn't, or just know he was thinking about the right things himself and he will surprise us at release with his retooled system (because we already know he has changed a lot of abilities).

Its not "my way or the highway" its just please dont go down "that way" (the all similar non-unique hodge podge where you are like "meh" DRK? PLD? whats the difference?).