2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But Dragonsong's Reprise was never cleared with no healers. Also, The Unending Coil was only cleared with 8 tanks AFAIK, never with the traditional no healer party setup. I agree healers are in a really bad spot, but let's not stretch reality to make it seem even more dire. The only ultimate that has been cleared on content with no healers is The Omega Protocol.

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UCoB was cleared without healers too

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

wait until this guy finds out a group beat the new ultimate without healers

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Hopefully someone will bring this up in an interview. Want to see was Yoshidas next excuse is for dissatisfied healers.

"Go play ultimate... without gear!" maybe?

I main a healer, I enjoy healing and this is exactly why I am on an extended break from the game. I have a ton of healing options and really no reason to use them.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Was this a coincidental perfect storm, a rare case where healers were unneeded to an atypical extent? Or is this representative of the status quo?

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Modern fight design is characterized by:

• Tanks that can shrug off autos and busters
• Mechanics that heavily favor avoidable damage (example)

So, in ye olde roulette content, healers exist primarily to cover for the mistakes made by others. Hence, proposals to increase and vary incoming damage (it's simply too low at this point), and proposals to spice up healer DPS (because better parties with higher ilvls simply need less healing, and no one seriously intends to increase incoming damage in roulette content so as to significantly raise the skill floor).

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Yes op, this is quite common. Had one last night where me and gnb (I was war) there was a short server wide lag spike near the end of p12n and all but us 3 died to the laser/line/chain to aoe explosion combo. We kept ourselves alive from 22% to 0 even with a vuln stack or two in the gnb case.

Let me just cut/paste something from my summary of healer issues thread

-The weapon's refrain and Epic of Alexander, have all been solo healed. Every other ultimate has been cleared without healers
-Eden's gate 4 (savage) was cleared without a healer when it was current content. https://youtu.be/zdDxjXMMWgU
-The 6.0 launch extreme trials have also been cleared without healers and with increasing frequency.
-Pandaemonium 1 normal was completed SOLO by 3 of the 4 tanks https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4
-Pandaemonium 1 and 2 SAVAGE was completed WITHOUT healers when current https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbvZJ-EU0U

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P12s has been cleared without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

Just gonna point out that it's not Dark knight enabling this, because people thought it was SOOOO Overpowered for doing 2% more damage when that was all it had going.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This is just how EW is

PLD with clemency, WAR with nascent, DNC with curing waltz (and I guess SMN with phoenix’s healing) healers just exist to pretend like they are needed and so the DPS can blame someone else if the raid actually does wipe

All healers are useless in casual content, regen healers are useless in all content it’s a literal joke

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If there was a SMN, the healers would have been picked up off the floor. PLD and WAR(and GNB to an extent) can help keep a party alive for quite a while. Heck, I remember when Copied Factory was new and I was on WAR, my entire alliance was downed during the second boss around the 70% mark, and the people with res were far enough away that they were out of reach for the other alliances. I received one heal from one of the other alliances, and never went down.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

If there was a SMN, the healers would have been picked up off the floor. PLD and WAR(and GNB to an extent) can help keep a party alive for quite a while. Heck, I remember when Copied Factory was new and I was on WAR, my entire alliance was downed during the second boss around the 70% mark, and the people with res were far enough away that they were out of reach for the other alliances. I received one heal from one of the other alliances, and never went down.

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Warrior has been powercrept into the stratosphere thanks to crying streamers and their followers eventhough it was perfectly fine before.
Previously, the community understood that with the utility Pld and War have, they should do less damage.
But they kept buffing them over and over again because people played Dark knight over them because of a 2% dps difference.
Sustain buff after sustain buff to warrior in particular, and then damage buffs. Patch after patch, and now here we are. A certain streamer's favourite line ''Warrior's healing doesn't matter'' turned into healers no longer matter. Because Warrior's healing does matter, his ego just couldn't stand being outdamaged by another tank.

If the balance team does not consider this a problem, i can only imagine what 7.0 will look like lol

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But Dragonsong's Reprise was never cleared with no healers. Also, The Unending Coil was only cleared with 8 tanks AFAIK, never with the traditional no healer party setup. I agree healers are in a really bad spot, but let's not stretch reality to make it seem even more dire. The only ultimate that has been cleared on content with no healers is The Omega Protocol.

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I bet the only reason DSR hasn't been cleared without healers is the Intermission and keeping Haur alive. If it was removed, it likely would have been cleared with no healers. That's not a great reflection on the rest of the fight and the healing requirements.

3/5 ULTIMATES being cleared with no healers, the other two being cleared with 1 healer, and all savage fights being cleared with no healers. 12/14 of the EW high end fights can be cleared with no healers. That is actually pretty dire imo.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

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The crazy thing to me is, while stories like this happen, there are other stories like I was doing a P9N a couple weeks ago and people didn't stack with the healer so both died and the party wiped within about 30 seconds to the damage from the boss.

I DO absolutely think tank and especially DPS healing and mitigation are way too powerful, and I think that healing by non-healers should always require expending GCDs (Clemency and Vercure are trade-offs in damage, Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are not, nor are any of the mitigations) to really make using them a strategic trade-off, not free healing/mitigation. The only roles that should have oGCD mitigations should probably be tanks and possibly healers, and the only ones with oGCD healing should be healers (tank self-mitigation being oGCDs make sense as well as tank self-healing being baked into their basic rotations).

But despite all of that, I've seen plenty of parties wipe when the healers go down. So I'm not sure this is the issue that people say it is. And insomuch as it is, it's more that DPS and tanks have too much healing in their kits.

It'd be like if when the DPSers died, the healer Jobs could output more damage than BLM or SAMs and clear Enrages just fine without the DPSers alive.

I think it's a two part problem:

1) Encounter design needs to do more consistent damage. It doesn't have to be big spikes, especially in casual content, it just needs to be consistent enough to require some spamable AOE heals. Tanks don't have AOE heals they can use repeatedly (stuff like Shake is on longish CDs), and likewise for the DPSers. Clemency and Vercure are single target effects only.

2) Healing on non-healer role Jobs needs to be rare, more clutch not sustainable, and actually cost GCDs to use, not be a fire and forget oGCD weave for free or freebie in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The crazy thing to me is, while stories like this happen, there are other stories like I was doing a P9N a couple weeks ago and people didn't stack with the healer so both died and the party wiped within about 30 seconds to the damage from the boss.

I DO absolutely think tank and especially DPS healing and mitigation are way too powerful, and I think that healing by non-healers should always require expending GCDs (Clemency and Vercure are trade-offs in damage, Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are not, nor are any of the mitigations) to really make using them a strategic trade-off, not free healing/mitigation. The only roles that should have oGCD mitigations should probably be tanks and possibly healers, and the only ones with oGCD healing should be healers (tank self-mitigation being oGCDs make sense as well as tank self-healing being baked into their basic rotations).

But despite all of that, I've seen plenty of parties wipe when the healers go down. So I'm not sure this is the issue that people say it is. And insomuch as it is, it's more that DPS and tanks have too much healing in their kits.

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Not just DPS and tanks have too much healing, UCOB is a clear and perfect example that other jobs did not have that much healing individually and can cost DPS to heal, but it was still cleared without healers. It's clear that healers don't offer anything other than healing and the design choice to make things easier for the players who wipe when everyone else has no issue reinforce this. Healers simply don't offer anything to the table that the other two roles cannot provide in more various amounts, and that's the biggest difference between the other 2 roles. Healers are just too narrowly focused in relation to the game's design.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

Also, here's p12s without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

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Yeah, let's nerf tanks because bosses aren't doing enough damage. This makes sense. It isn't rocket science. All they have to do is increase endgame enemy damage to the point tank and DPS are incapable of healing themselves enough to keep up with it.