Frontlines are unplayable.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I think having a coordinated pre-made can be a start to having your team win, but more importantly is communicating with the rest of your whole team and there willingness to actually follow through on call outs. Like you said, I think having someone take up a role of cordinating the team would have a much higher success rate than just 4 people trying to carry the rest of the 20 members of the team.

As for BH, I don't personally think its bad to have in the game, however I do think people see it as bad due to how much harder it is to kill anyone with BH with how much DR is in the game. I think it more has to do with how LBs are designed, since the way that they function (and just the job design in general) is meant for CC, however I feel like they could adjust LBs specifically for FLs. They could just change the rate at which you gain LBs by making there base CD for them much longer than usual. And if its seen as too long, they could always have some mechanic that could speed up the rate at which you'd get your LB, like if BH made your LB have a shorter CD rather than a damage buff. I think with this system they wouldn't have to do major balancing for LBs that could conflict with CC, fix BH so its still there for rewarding players for getting kills while not making them feel completely oppressive, and since LBs are not as prominent a before they could reduce the DR since LBs are not as frequent.

I mostly just spitballed these ideas so I don't think this is completely full proof or good, but it does have ideas of what I think would make FLs feel less cringe, at least what I personally see is cringe in FL.

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Had to take multiple deep breaths before responding because you're just outright ignoring the heart of the issue.

I'll just say it bluntly. You don't want to pvp. You sound like you want to play some sort of campaign managing game instead of actually having skilled player vs player interactions. I don't mind strategy but right now mindless group play is all there is in FL. It's so uninteresting and the only way to make it fun is to level the playing field. Introduce some chaos so that you can actually make a difference on your own with various openings in the fights, rather than your only options being trying to organize your entire alliance or lose to the teams that do.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Had to take multiple deep breaths before responding because you're just outright ignoring the heart of the issue.

I'll just say it bluntly. You don't want to pvp. You sound like you want to play some sort of campaign managing game instead of actually having skilled player vs player interactions. I don't mind strategy but right now mindless group play is all there is in FL. It's so uninteresting and the only way to make it fun is to level the playing field. Introduce some chaos so that you can actually make a difference on your own with various openings in the fights, rather than your only options being trying to organize your entire alliance or lose to the teams that do.

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I mean, if you want to guarantee a victory in FL or any team based game, you do need to have a coordinated team to actually play objectives. Like the team just droning around like muppets won't beat the team that is actually being coordinated with call outs to help with there positioning. Not to sound cheesy, but I remember grinding out to get my field commander coat, and the most effective way to get the coat was to do shot calls and coordinate my team to properly win objectives. It felt cool having to act as a field commander to get a field commander coat. Its just a fact that any team based game will have some level of managing your team to make winning the game easier.

However, I would like some modicum of individual player expression in FL again, ever since the DR changes it has become incredibly hard to have that feeling at all. Before I could actually go out by myself and take a node on Seal Rock by myself since I could easily kill the player or two that is guarding the node. Now, it has become increasingly hard to do anything by yourself that it just feels pointless to not just zerg with the rest of your team. I would want them to just revert it, however they probably never will unless they do something about LBs because they just completely farm players with how powerful they are.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I mean, if you want to guarantee a victory in FL or any team based game, you do need to have a coordinated team to actually play objectives. Like the team just droning around like muppets won't beat the team that is actually being coordinated with call outs to help with there positioning. Not to sound cheesy, but I remember grinding out to get my field commander coat, and the most effective way to get the coat was to do shot calls and coordinate my team to properly win objectives. It felt cool having to act as a field commander to get a field commander coat. Its just a fact that any team based game will have some level of managing your team to make winning the game easier.

However, I would like some modicum of individual player expression in FL again, ever since the DR changes it has become incredibly hard to have that feeling at all. Before I could actually go out by myself and take a node on Seal Rock by myself since I could easily kill the player or two that is guarding the node. Now, it has become increasingly hard to do anything by yourself that it just feels pointless to not just zerg with the rest of your team. I would want them to just revert it, however they probably never will unless they do something about LBs because they just completely farm players with how powerful they are.

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Yeah, you've convinced me. You're not interested in pvp. You're interested in roleplaying as some sort of general.

Also it's not a fact that any team based game requires coordination between team members. You've literally never played anything besides your ff14 rp pvp have you?

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Which is why pre-mades are a problem.

Frontlines have become more about communication than they have been about pvp. Unless you're queued up with friends, or unless you're willing to take a leadership role, your game is lost. The casuals will sit there trying to farm nodes thinking it's going to win them the game and cheering themselves on while the other two teams build their battle highs off each other.

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So the main problem isn't pre-mades but people that aren't trying. Why restrict pre-mades then? Frontlines being about communication is also not strictly correct, I've won matches where no one says a single word because everyone has their map open and knows what to do. Not every team you lose to is a pre-made.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

They could just change the rate at which you gain LBs by making there base CD for them much longer than usual. And if its seen as too long, they could always have some mechanic that could speed up the rate at which you'd get your LB, like if BH made your LB have a shorter CD rather than a damage buff. I think with this system they wouldn't have to do major balancing for LBs that could conflict with CC, fix BH so its still there for rewarding players for getting kills while not making them feel completely oppressive, and since LBs are not as prominent a before they could reduce the DR since LBs are not as frequent.

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I'm not sure if you realise, but if they reduce LB generation and make DRG slightly less effective while also reducing DR, people would just stack AST instead. You won't have Sky Shatter stacking, you'll have Macrocosmos stacking, and you'll still die equally as fast.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Yeah, you've convinced me. You're not interested in pvp. You're interested in roleplaying as some sort of general.

Also it's not a fact that any team based game requires coordination between team members. You've literally never played anything besides your ff14 rp pvp have you?

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Yes, I like going into FL sometimes and giving my team call outs to tell them where to go so I can win and get more rewards at the end of the match. It makes me feel very good. =)

I've actually played many team games, and I notice that in those team games if your team is coordinated you do typically win more often than not. It doesn't take a genius to know that games like these typically encourage and reward players for working together in a team like what your suppose to.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm not sure if you realise, but if they reduce LB generation and make DRG slightly less effective while also reducing DR, people would just stack AST instead. You won't have Sky Shatter stacking, you'll have Macrocosmos stacking, and you'll still die equally as fast.

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Jobs like DRG who are incredibly effective already would be sightly less effective, but given how egregious people claim the LB to feel in gameplay I feel like its a valid. It's not like the rest of the kit is horrible either so it shouldn't be as bad. As for the Macrocosmos issue, they could just do tuning for that at worst. I do think having some DR like we had before might be enough? I'm not a game dev with good balancing experience but I imagine you can make an environment where that is balanced enough.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Which is why pre-mades are a problem.

Frontlines have become more about communication than they have been about pvp..

Honestly, I think removing BH would help with that. Remove BH, buff damage rates, shorten the points needed for a victory. No BH will mean that teams won't steamroll, and the randoms that join that think they're clever by farming nodes will actually become useful. It won't be as amazing as before the pvp changes when we had more than a handful of buttons to press and you could actually outplay people but it'd be something.

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That's it - communication and being proactive.
Something that most people aren't capable of in PvP.

Removing BH? It's a gimmick/power up for useful people. Useless people don't get BH, maybe by gaining +2 for hitting people others kill after.
Just look at the overview after those games, some games are just a hell of a wasting time.

Better to remove EXP and mogry tomes ecc for PvP.
I'd prefer to wait 10mins for an invite instead of like 2mins in exchange of pvp-able people are queueing which are interested in PvP.

You all have a damn screw loose.

"Remove EXP and tome rewards because I don't like people playing PvP for incentive, I only like people playing PvP when the mode itself is the incentive. I don't mind waiting 10min for a match."

First of all - many DO MIND having to wait 10min vs 2min, match quality be damned. Prolonged queue times affect fun and desire to play, let alone try it out. You are killing off both reward driven players AND pvp interested players by making matches take ages to form.

Secondly - your matches will NOT get magically better by gatekeeping what you play the mode for and limit it to "pvp enthusiasts only".

Lastly - every single piece of content that isnt mainline story content has additional incentive to incentivize people to go back and do more, that is literally how modern game design in an oversaturated entertainment market works to keep you playing their game and in case of FFXIV so others can play.

At least you get roulette bonus even if you lose... If it is too unbearable, just afk and grab your bonus. I always vote no on dismissal in front line.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Had to take multiple deep breaths before responding because you're just outright ignoring the heart of the issue.

I'll just say it bluntly. You don't want to pvp. You sound like you want to play some sort of campaign managing game instead of actually having skilled player vs player interactions. I don't mind strategy but right now mindless group play is all there is in FL. It's so uninteresting and the only way to make it fun is to level the playing field. Introduce some chaos so that you can actually make a difference on your own with various openings in the fights, rather than your only options being trying to organize your entire alliance or lose to the teams that do.

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I'm gonna sound like an elitist but frankly, people whining about getting shrekted by DRK/DRGs combos, and especially the ones scapegoating premades, are not exactly what I think about when you mention player vs player interactions. That's really a skill issue problem, that's what it is. I have yet to constantly get deleted by such a combo or premades, I play solo all the time, and I get BH5 almost all the time without breaking too much sweat.

Now then, besides people not knowing how to respond to the obvious culprit combos or BH5 premades (just stun them and yoink them to your team, they're as good as dead, it's so easy with some jobs it's almost pathetic), the real problem behind that skill issue, is positioning, and positioning is one of the hardest things to learn in pvp there. It takes time and dedication, but I can totally see why that's not the kind of skill a lot of people would want to learn out of pvp. Perhaps that's the true crux of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm gonna sound like an elitist but frankly, people whining about getting shrekted by DRK/DRGs combos, and especially the ones scapegoating premades, are not exactly what I think about when you mention player vs player interactions. That's really a skill issue problem, that's what it is. I have yet to constantly get deleted by such a combo or premades, I play solo all the time, and I get BH5 almost all the time without breaking too much sweat.

Now then, besides people not knowing how to respond to the obvious culprit combos or BH5 premades (just stun them and yoink them to your team, they're as good as dead, it's so easy with some jobs it's almost pathetic), the real problem behind that skill issue, is positioning, and positioning is one of the hardest things to learn in pvp there. It takes time and dedication, but I can totally see why that's not the kind of skill a lot of people would want to learn out of pvp. Perhaps that's the true crux of the matter.

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Elitists tend to actually be good at whatever they're lecturing people about. But let's not pretend this isn't a bad faith answer considering you intentionally misunderstood everything I posted about.

You discuss positioning when there is no proper way to position in a lot of instances in FLs. For example you're in the middle of Onsal, and it's so easy for anything with massive aoes to put in work. I've pointed it out before, but DRK/DRG is just meta, and if that left something else would replace it. I also never stated that you get deleted, considering you should be able to prop up guard before DRG LB fairly easily and spam your recuperates til out. Doesn't change the fact that you were just pushed off the objective with such ease.

And my point about BH isn't about it being hard to get. It's the snowball effect from it. When half or more of one team is just there to level alt jobs and farm tomes, that snowball effect becomes menacing. It means that you can't do anything with even the small group of players that are there to play.

This is why pre-mades and organized parties are a nuisance. If FL was more like CC everyone would be rolling the dice on whether the team is even interested and will work well together or not. There'd be more natural openings. It'd be more of a level playing field even if half your team is afk hitting a rock themed target dummy while a big objective is up and the other two teams are fighting. This is the heart of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

Yes, I like going into FL sometimes and giving my team call outs to tell them where to go so I can win and get more rewards at the end of the match. It makes me feel very good. =)

I've actually played many team games, and I notice that in those team games if your team is coordinated you do typically win more often than not. It doesn't take a genius to know that games like these typically encourage and reward players for working together in a team like what your suppose to.

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You probably haven't. I mean haven't you heard the term solo carry? The only shooter I ever played where I actually had to communicate was OW. CSGO/PUBG both allowed you to carry your groups if you were good enough. MOBAs are the same to a degree. Obviously there's tools for sharing and communicating there, but that's just quick hand communication. That's not the same as roleplaying general.