Dark Knight needs serious help

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

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Not at all. A tank who mitigates properly still has a LOT of durability. Whenever I run stuff with a DRK main friend of mine, I'm always amazed by the fact that he seems to just not take any damage. If anything, the ridiculous sustain of WAR and PLD means they never learn to use their mitigation properly because they don't need to. Then they stumble into something like The Tower of Zot where the adds actually hit decently hard (in leveling gear anyway), and they fall flat on their face because no amount of healing tools can outheal the combo of a tank not using their CDs and DPS not dealing much damage by virtue of having trash gear.

If we must have a tank that requires little skill due to having at on of healing, then let it be one of them. Don't make them all like that, please.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Not at all. A tank who mitigates properly still has a LOT of durability. Whenever I run stuff with a DRK main friend of mine, I'm always amazed by the fact that he seems to just not take any damage. If anything, the ridiculous sustain of WAR and PLD means they never learn to use their mitigation properly because they don't need to. Then they stumble into something like The Tower of Zot where the adds actually hit decently hard (in leveling gear anyway), and they fall flat on their face because no amount of healing tools can outheal the combo of a tank not using their CDs and DPS not dealing much damage by virtue of having trash gear.

If we must have a tank that requires little skill due to having at on of healing, then let it be one of them. Don't make them all like that, please.

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WAR and PLD sustain doesn't reach what one might consider ridiculous levels for quite some time, particularly in the case of the latter. If you've not learned how to mitigate by then, well, pretty clearly getting access to healing tools was never the issue. At that point it's a lack of willingness to learn issue, not job ability issue. You're also greatly overestimating the kind of durability WAR and PLD have in the absence of their self-healing Even assuming flawless execution of all mechanics and perfectly timed mitigation tool usage, they're not going to match DRK in this department. Their kits are designed around the idea they'll be self-healing in addition to mitigating. There's also the matter of player fun to consider. Do you know how many people enjoy WAR and PLD in large part because they're so effective at self-sustaining? People sure don't go to them for the DPS.

At any rate, I think another part of my point might be unclear. At present, there are things in the game -- things you do by yourself, not necessarily with a group -- PLD and WAR are only able to do because of their ability to self-heal. Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated either with more mitigation tools or additional damage in order to continue doing these things. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

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As the others have said no we don’t want the tanks to be helpless but nor is it fair for a healer to zone into a level 90 dungeon, see they have a PLD or WAR and realise their entire third of the trinity is entirely useless for this dungeon and they are basically going to be playing a gimped caster for the next 20 minutes

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

WAR and PLD sustain doesn't reach what one might consider ridiculous levels for quite some time, particularly in the case of the latter. If you've not learned how to mitigate by then, well, pretty clearly getting access to healing tools was never the issue. At that point it's a lack of willingness to learn issue, not job ability issue. You're also greatly overestimating the kind of durability WAR and PLD have in the absence of their self-healing Even assuming flawless execution of all mechanics and perfectly timed mitigation tool usage, they're not going to match DRK. Their kits are designed around the idea they'll be self-healing in addition to mitigating.

At any rate, I think part of my point might be unclear. At present, there are things in the game -- things you do by yourself, not necessarily with a group -- PLD and WAR are only able to do because of their ability to self-heal. Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated with massively improved mitigation and damage just to make up for what was taken away. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

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Sustain tanks being able to solo things that shouldn’t be soloable should never factor into balance decisions mr WAR already has the most damage anyway

They could literally nerf bloodwhetting so that it only hit once per GCD not once per enemy and WAR would go back to being decently balanced

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

A few things to note.

1.) WAR's damage ceiling is still lower than DRK's, but they are definitely worlds better off than they were.
2.) No one even mentioned things being soloed that shouldn't be soloed. What?



It's been the sustain tank for quite some time now. I can only assume they'll eventually decide to shake up meta by moving that crown to one of the others somewhere down the line, as has been their m.o.
Not gonna lie, I've kinda got a sinking feeling about WAR in Dawntrail. People have spent an entire expansion railing against them. A massive kneejerk reaction crippling them would not be surprising.

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You said “things you do by yourself you don’t do as a group” the only thing that would apply to that involves needing that high sustain is WAR and PLD being able to solo content they shouldn’t be able to solo, otherwise the content is also balanced to allow DRK to do it therefore meaning that PLD/WAR’s self sustain is excessive

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You said “things you do by yourself you don’t do as a group” the only thing that would apply to that involves needing that high sustain is WAR and PLD being able to solo content they shouldn’t be able to solo, otherwise the content is also balanced to allow DRK to do it therefore meaning that PLD/WAR’s self sustain is excessive

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Ah, you're missing context. I see. This somewhat makes more sense now. The post you were reacting to was made in response to others seemingly wanting PLD and WAR to lose their healing without being duly compensated in other areas, which would prevent them from properly engaging with certain forms of content due to their kits being designed with that healing in mind. You appear to be interpreting their kits as mitigation + healing, but that healing is in fact intended to serve as part of their mitigation. Their current kits would not be adequate in the event the healing was gutted.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Ah, you're missing context. I see. This somewhat makes more sense now. The post you were reacting to was made in response to others seemingly wanting PLD and WAR to lose their healing without being duly compensated in other areas, which would prevent them from properly engaging with certain forms of content due to their kits being designed with that healing in mind. You appear to be interpreting their kits as mitigation + healing, but that healing is in fact intended to serve as part of their mitigation. Their current kits would not be adequate in the event the healing was gutted.

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If you gutted both of their healing PLD would lose nothing at all, WAR would need some slight adjustments to nascent flash and bloodwhetting to counter they are weaker on the mitigation side (but not by much), WAR and PLD with zero healing would still be around the level of current DRK

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Why is WAR the sustain tank, though? Is it a Final Fantasy thing? Because it seems to me very much like the DnD Barbarian and those, while being extremely sturdy, don't really have a whole lot of healing. If anyone should be "the healing tank", it's Paladin.

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I mean that's their ff14 identity at, if we wanted to do pure identity from past final fantasy games then dark knight would be a DPS.

Way I see it is Paladin is more of a team player with back up support/healing, Not a tank that's selfish and sustains itself like a warrior, hence why i think healing from your magic burst and holy spirit should be removed for something else (such as a utility healing skill similar to gunbreakers aurora or warriors equilibrium, that could obviously target someone on a 60 second CD). I feel like Paladin in general could use more improvements to it's utility as it's a big part of why i liked the job in the first place... issue is a lot of ur utility is situational or bad. Paladin is also meant to be more about High defensive skills as the shield tank.

The Way I see it is that warrior is meant to be about self sustaining, I do agree it's sustain is way too much in current content but removing what Warrior players like about warrior isn't really a great move. I think we just need to tone down warriors sustain in raiding content, in dungeon content it's super busted and shouldn't make healers useless in aoe situations, I'd also likely want to see some slight nerfs to warriors general mitigation, or a return to warrior having to choose their short CD to Sustain or Mitigate damage like it used to in shadowbringers

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Should that be removed, they would need to be compensated either with more mitigation tools or additional damage in order to continue doing these things. There's a lot more to factor into this than the fact some healers aren't happy about being optional in max level dungeons.

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I would agree with you if WAR hadn't been getting such preferential treatment for a while. I was mostly fine with them being virtually immortal in most content because they were paying for it with lower damage. If you wanted a DPS tank, you would reach for GNB or DRK, if you wanted more survivability, then WAR and PLD were your go-to. Except then WAR players threw a hissy fit about their favourite tank not being meta and WAR's damage got buffed. Their mitigation isn't that far behind the tanks with less sustain, either.

Why is it that RDM has to pay for having Verraise but WAR gets to be the best at everything? That's perhaps what annoys me most about the entire situation.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Not a tank that's selfish and sustains itself like a warrior

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Have you actually read Nascent or Shake it off though?
WAR is far from selfish, its team mitigations far outpace what the other tanks can do, with the only one coming close being PLD with both wings and Veil, but at the cost of being clunkier to use.
If any tank is the selfish tank its DRK or GNB. Currently bringing a good WAR is like having a high damage tank who's also acting as a 3rd healer for free.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Have you actually read Nascent or Shake it off though?
WAR is far from selfish, its team mitigations far outpace what the other tanks can do, with the only one coming close being PLD with both wings and Veil, but at the cost of being clunkier to use.
If any tank is the selfish tank its DRK or GNB. Currently bringing a good WAR is like having a high damage tank who's also acting as a 3rd healer for free.

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Well, DRK > PLD. Tell a modern-XIV-raider PLD to Clemency someone, sacrificing a GCD, and they'll likely have a conniption. GNB at least has a free ally-targetable heal beyond their on-demand, opposite WAR's just absurd amount of total sustain grantable even to non-tanks via SiO and NF.