Ideas For a Paladin Rework

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mithron

Would be fine if rDPS was within 1% of each other. So yes, PLD technically lowest rDPS, but not more than 1% against highest rDPS tank.

---

I would look into aDPS more than rDPS.

Paladin loses hardcore against Drk/Gnb, nothing to use in raid buff window.

Warrior only has a short time raid buff window.

Gnb/Drk have lengths more attacks in raid buff windows they're a league ahead. Majority of players don't capitalize raid buffs and pot timings, it's pretty sad however very optimal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

If Paldin DPS is low then the defense must be high and because DPS is low PLD will not be valued. : )

---

Paladin's Defense is already high compared to other tanks ! Show me through number why Paladin should have such a massive defense boost allowing them to be almost invincible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I would look into aDPS more than rDPS.

Paladin loses hardcore against Drk/Gnb, nothing to use in raid buff window.

Warrior only has a short time raid buff window.

Gnb/Drk have lengths more attacks in raid buff windows they're a league ahead. Majority of players don't capitalize raid buffs and pot timings, it's pretty sad however very optimal.

---

Yeah I guess aDPS does matter for tanks more. I know PLD is lowest and they should be, but it shouldn't be by much ideally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Paladin's Defense is already high compared to other tanks ! Show me through number why Paladin should have such a massive defense boost allowing them to be almost invincible.

---

Show me why it shouldn't. I'm bad at maths. I'm not looking for equal mitigation. I'm looking for more mitigation.

Why should GNB have all it's defensives and it's high DPS?

And if PLD defense is so good why are they not chosen to be MT? Let me guess. Damage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Why should GNB have all it's defensives and it's high DPS?

And if PLD defense is so good why are they not chosen to be MT? Let me guess. Damage?

---

Just to address these 2 points:

1. All tanks need to be able to tank all content, so they need to have the mitigation kit to be able to do it. This is why every tank has some sort of basic mitigation kit, short cooldown, rampart, 2 minute, invuln, raid mit. With the way most encounters are setup, the only real damaging things are the mechanics and not so much the auto attacks (though they can be more of a nuisance in some fights). Every tank can deal with each mechanic, therefore the last thing to compare tanks with is their damage contribution.

2. They have better tools for and OT, however, the idea of a MT and OT in extreme, savage and ultimate fights really doesn't exist. Both tanks will be tanking the boss at some point and they should be helping each other mitigate damage.

So, to recap, every tank has the tools to effectively mitigate damage in every fight, any extra and it is essentially superfluous. There are also no dedicated MT or OT tanks, all tanks can fill both roles due to tank swaps forcing both tanks to be in the MT position. So, what is left to measure tanks by? Their damage. If damage is close enough, people tend to not care, however, if the discrepancy is too high, and you bring a tank who does significantly less, then you force everyone else to make up that difference. At that point, why not just bring another, high damage tank to make the margin of error bigger?

So you do bring certain Tanks for their damage. PLD/WAR for Progression/Learning an encounter. DRK/GNB for damage once you know what will happen.

Therefore long term mitigation doesn't particularly matter which is the problem IMO. Being a Tank should focus on being defensive first and damage output later. Which is clearly not the case.

But that's just a symptom of the dark age of homogenization where everyone is a DPS where the only thing that matters is high damage all the time.

So it ends up just being play the Flavor of the Month Tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Paladin's Defense is already high compared to other tanks ! Show me through number why Paladin should have such a massive defense boost allowing them to be almost invincible.

---

Dark knight, Warrior and Gunbreaker in comparison
>All get a extra defensive cooldown.
>They get another support/defensive 60 second cd in aurora, Oblation and Equilibrium
>They all benefit from their own party utility PLD does not.
>PLD's blocks don't work against things such as dots, surpise they have a lot of them this raid tier.
>Unlike warrior PLD doesn't have control over most of its self healing.
>Longest Invul in the game, compared to warrior its a joke.
>Intervention is just a worse version of holy Shelltron, other tanks targeted short cds are the same, or better in warrior/gnb case.

Yeah no PLD is easily the weakest tank defensively bar none. It's a joke compared to the other tanks in raiding content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

1) So you do bring certain Tanks for their damage. PLD/WAR for Progression/Learning an encounter. DRK/GNB for damage once you know what will happen.

2) Therefore long term mitigation doesn't particularly matter which is the problem IMO. Being a Tank should focus on being defensive first and damage output later. Which is clearly not the case.

3) But that's just a symptom of the dark age of homogenization where everyone is a DPS where the only thing that matters is high damage all the time.

4) So it ends up just being play the Flavor of the Month Tank.

---

1) Except that is not how it should be. Every tank should be viable at every level, this applies to all jobs across all roles.

2) They are defensive first damage later. All tanks have the defensive side covered, so it is down to the damage to determine whether you want to take a tank or not. Weirdly enough, the best the tanks have been is in ShB, where the tanks done similar damage to each other.

3) There needs to be some level of homogenization. Every tank needs the defensive kit to do an encounter. If they don't, they won't be used, which goes against the whole 'every job can clear every content'.

4) At the moment, only because of the damage difference, which is probably a non issue now with better gear, however, as mentioned, ShB was the best state the tanks have been in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

1) Except that is not how it should be. Every tank should be viable at every level, this applies to all jobs across all roles.

2) They are defensive first damage later. All tanks have the defensive side covered, so it is down to the damage to determine whether you want to take a tank or not. Weirdly enough, the best the tanks have been is in ShB, where the tanks done similar damage to each other.

3) There needs to be some level of homogenization. Every tank needs the defensive kit to do an encounter. If they don't, they won't be used, which goes against the whole 'every job can clear every content'.

4) At the moment, only because of the damage difference, which is probably a non issue now with better gear, however, as mentioned, ShB was the best state the tanks have been in.

---

Currently PLD doesn't really match the other tanks in utility or defensive, has the most complicated rotation and worser damage (tied with war but thats generally give or take depending on the fight, wars a much better tank).

Theirs some truth to keep tanks close enough to each other, but theirs a point where you want diversions and more reason then "more damage = better" Keeping tanks diverse and having different strengths and weaknesses keeps things more diverse, I rather play a "unbalanced" game that has more options then a balanced game where the only real option or defining feature is flavour.

I believe you could give tanks such as PLD a slight defensive and utility advantage while keeping it a bit below the top dpsing tanks, It really wouldn't break the game considering most DPS checks are designed to compensate for "less performing jobs", I guess p8s pre nerf was a example where people actually switched off warrior and paladin, but I see why generally people are going to want to reduce the room for utility vs damage even more even on tanks everyone will want them to have the same utility. I rather live in a world where the games more intresting with jobs, we should want justice for jobs such as Machinist and even reaper and red mage but we should avoid trying to make the jobs even less interesting then they already are, we should embrace a bit of job diversity and tools that make different jobs stand out.

The way CASUAL fights are designed now is that damage doesn't matter too much because you rarely see DPS checks mechanics (like a exploding add or a shield that need to break) and the fight doesn't have an enrage, boss damage to tanks are really low, boss' buster are pathetic, you can survive even if you don't press a single mitigation button, but if you play right it does very little damage. So if you are going to buff PLD block to mitigate more damage or give a OP mitigation skill(to be the mitigation tank) you'll take 0 damage from the boss and make the healer useless, doesn't make sense to exclude a role like that when WAR healing made a lot of healers mad cause they felt useless.
Savage/Ultimate fights are a complete different thing, you need good damage to clear every fight, and you need mitigation for busters and raid wide aoes, this is where PLD feels weak or clunky, you have less choice of personal mit, and both your party mit are awkward to use (wings everyone have to be together and behind you, and Veil only works with a heal).
Things that made PLD special in the past was removed or made irrelevant, Cover was fantastic but never NEEDED(you had 20% mit), PLD had a anti-knockback berfore arms length and worked with cover (now everyone has anti-knockback), HG ignored secondary effect from busters like weakness and bleed.

>For the PLD, what mostly raiders want is:
A better defensive option, because of stuff like bleeding and ultimates destroying PLD;
HG to have a reduced CD, because they removed the possiblity to ignored secondary effects
Cover to be stronger, because your intervention is just a better 50 gauge skill
Damage to be as good as DRK/GNB, because you don't want to feel like you're griefing your group when you wipe at a 0.1% enrage

>What most casual players ask:
A job that feels really strong on the defense side
A job that have a unique feeling when playing, like a tank that protect others
Avoid homogenization

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.