DSR was just solo healed

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Does this prove healing is completely undertuned even in Ultimates and that there's no challenging content for healers in the entire game?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

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Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic

So engaging. So expertly tuned. A zillion thrills a minute.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Or nothing.

DPS are entirely optional in dungeons. Hell, I'd wager TANKS are. It would be a pita, but you could probably heal + 3 DPS any 4 man in this game. Likewise, people noting all tank runs of P1S work like to suggest this means healers are unnecessary, but that ALSO suggests DAMAGE DEALING JOBS are unnecessary if low damage tanks were able to clear the enrage without needing a single one, now doesn't it? This same argument likely carries to Extremes. There is ONE all class - no Job stone - Zodiark Ex run on the abacus. I know this because I was in it. (I don't run parsers, but I saw someone uploaded the run.) It was close, but I feel like if we were able to clear the add DPS check and enrage with a Gladiator, Marauder, two Conjurers, and four Pugalists, an all tank run of ZodEx is very likely entirely possible to do. Once again, does this mean Damage Dealers are unnecessary in FFXIV?

.

It's an impressive feat not done by JUST an exceptionally skilled player, but EIGHT - a full party - of exceptionally skilled players, working together, pushing their limits. It took a number of tries because they ALSO had to have luck turn just their way. They also had to cheese some mechanics to get it to work. And they brought the most overpowered of the healers that also has infinite MP along as their healer of choice to clear it.

YES, that is an exception to the rule.

But if you doubt it: Solo heal it right now and show us all how easy it is?

.

Is healing undertuned in much of the game?

Oh yes.

Does this prove healing is completely undertuned even in Ultimates and that there's no challenging content for healers in the entire game?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

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I will say as a super casual player that dungeons and EX fights are undertuned for healers, especially when it becomes more efficient to have less or no healers to run that content.

Sure, all these random group setup scenarios are probably possible in content but it doesn't mean much when they are less efficient then subbing out a healer for another dps and asking the one healer to heal more.

I find it amusing that even as a solo healer on the hardest fight in the game, his most casted spell is STILL Fall Malefic.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

DPS are entirely optional in dungeons. Hell, I'd wager TANKS are. It would be a pita, but you could probably heal + 3 DPS any 4 man in this game.

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This is absolutely true, you can clear any dungeon with any set of four jobs you want, nothing is tuned in a way that would prevent it. It would be a LOT slower without a single DPS, though. And clearing content faster is objectively better than clearing it slower, especially when we're taking about content you're largely only doing to farm currency. There's no benefit to a purposefully slower run though, other than perhaps the novelty of amusing yourself once or twice by going in with 4 healers and getting the clear. So, while yes, DPS are also by no means mandatory on the lower end of the difficulty spectrum, they're still *desirable*, and one tank that can self heal through a bigger pull while the DPS burn things faster in turn is also desirable. Healers... not so much. This is what people *actually* mean when they say they're unneeded. Not that they're unusable or anything else couldn't be dropped as well, but simply that in general if you can get away with doing so it's always better to drop as many healers as possible... and that it is also very common to be able to do that with at least one of them in most content.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

Because its easy, now do it.

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If you had read what people said...
You'd see that they congratulated the group and the healer and they recognized the effort needeed.

The point is not player skills. It's that the hardest content of the game shouldn't even be doable without 2 healers.
Especially after Yoship repeadetly telling us "wait Savage, wait Ultimate" each time people were complanining about the bad healer design.

We gathered enough data other the past years to proove that there is a huge disconnect and problem with healing and healer.

Anything would be better than what we have right now. It's a fake role, a fidget spinner you give to kids to keep them distracted while the rest of the group does their work. As someone who has been a career healer since XI but can barely stomach it in XIV it's very frustrating.

As is, you could dismantle the entire role and dish out a few more role actions or up consumable use and the game would very sincerely improve in both depth and usability.

It doesn't matter how many healing buttons there are when there's zero thought process or need for any of it, WHMs had to beg to even be able to throw their useless healing into the void where you'd be clawing at the walls for Lillies in any other MMO raid. Cracking potions over heads in retro JRPGs genuinely has more tension and triage than 99.99% of healer gameplay in XIV.

I have no opinion on what they do anymore, my only care at this point is to actually see the development team lift a finger to do something about genuine rot.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

FOR ANYONE SAYING THIS MEANS HEALING IS TOO EASY/BROKEN:

This seems to be a REALLY advanced group min/maxing everything to a fine art/flawless science. The OP also mentions that this was their 10th attempt as RNG has to work out just right for it to be successful. [EDIT: Or 10th day of them trying to get it to work, one of the two - point is, it wasn't even possible for them unless the RNG worked out in their favor, which took several attempts to get lucky with.]

The fastest runner in the world can probably outrun several types of animals/vehicles. That doesn't mean this is common or normal.

Do NOT use exceptions that prove the rule as an argument against the rule. It makes no sense. When everyone and their dog is solo healing Ultimates, THEN we can start talking. But how many of you, here, personally have solo healed it?

Any of you?

No?

Then perhaps we shouldn't be drawing grand conclusions from this niche case...

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Nah we can draw conclusions. This combined with everything else is just icing on the cake. It’s a prime example of the problems with healing and a direct rebuttal against Yoshi P’s shitty mindset of “just go play Ultimate for engaging healing.” Tired of seeing people defending this shitty healer design for so long.

Lets look into this a little closer rather than just blindly throwing opinions.

Looking at the entire log they uploaded, there's 2 key wipe points that stand out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug8wMt1cU2w The first mechanic that killed them most frequently. - This isn't a heal check whatsoever, it's just a particularly precise dodging intermission.

https://youtu.be/KNEuMpgvwkY?t=754 The second mechanic that caused repeated wipes. - This is much harder to read and understand what was going wrong, I'm not sure if the group themselves has explained it? My best guess is that it's down to a sequence of mechanics that uses the healers as targets for hits that need to be soaked across 4 making it a bit of a pot shot as to whom actually gets targeted.

As an outlier it could also be LB3 generation? They need to use the LB3 to survive Ankh Afah reliably (Due to the healer having to stand alone) and they didn't cast it on any of the 4 wipes that I looked at at that point.

My opinion from this?

Eh, anyone who's paid attention to DSR knows that it was never really a healing check anyway. It's absolutely the most intense test of mechanics, precision, dps and mitigation in the game yet. But in terms of sheer healing throughput required? It's no higher than what we already see in Savage, adjust for the stat squish and it's less Damage taken per second than E12S's door boss.

IMHO it's just further evidence that SE have backed themselves into a corner with this. E12S's Door Boss was about as hard as they can push healing requirements with the toolkits we had then because of the way our MP economy and GCD healing kits are tuned. Until these aspects get a serious rethink, I don't think we'll ever see the sort of healing check that many of us are hoping for because the game simply can't support it as things stand.

If there was ever a clear sign that SE needs to make our kits more interactive within themselves, this is it IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Lets look into this a little closer rather than just blindly throwing opinions.

Looking at the entire log they uploaded, there's 2 key wipe points that stand out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug8wMt1cU2w The first mechanic that killed them most frequently. - This isn't a heal check whatsoever, it's just a particularly precise dodging intermission.

https://youtu.be/KNEuMpgvwkY?t=754 The second mechanic that caused repeated wipes. - This is much harder to read and understand what was going wrong, I'm not sure if the group themselves has explained it? My best guess is that it's down to a sequence of mechanics that uses the healers as targets for hits that need to be soaked across 4 making it a bit of a pot shot as to whom actually gets targeted.

As an outlier it could also be LB3 generation? They need to use the LB3 to survive Ankh Afah reliably (Due to the healer having to stand alone) and they didn't cast it on any of the 4 wipes that I looked at at that point.

My opinion from this?

Eh, anyone who's paid attention to DSR knows that it was never really a healing check anyway. It's absolutely the most intense test of mechanics, precision, dps and mitigation in the game yet. But in terms of sheer healing throughput required? It's no higher than what we already see in Savage, adjust for the stat squish and it's less Damage taken per second than E12S's door boss.

IMHO it's just further evidence that SE have backed themselves into a corner with this. E12S's Door Boss was about as hard as they can push healing requirements with the toolkits we had then because of the way our MP economy and GCD healing kits are tuned. Until these aspects get a serious rethink, I don't think we'll ever see the sort of healing check that many of us are hoping for because the game simply can't support it as things stand.

If there was ever a clear sign that SE needs to make our kits more interactive within themselves, this is it IMHO.

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Adding on to this:

Two healers are "required" because SE puts in mechanics that specifically target healers and unnecessarily punish the group for not taking 2.

Lazy design imo.
Forcing a 2 healer mechanic in every fight so the team is forced to take a second healer, not because they need one.

I imagine solo healing would be a lot more popular if all the content worth doing didn't have a mandatory double healer check mechanic.
It literally has nothing to with the skill of the healers or the party, the game simply forces you to take a second healer if you don't want to be trolled by things like searing wind.

Honestly pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Adding on to this:

Two healers are "required" because SE puts in mechanics that specifically target healers and unnecessarily punish the group for not taking 2.

Lazy design imo.
Forcing a 2 healer mechanic in every fight so the team is forced to take a second healer, not because they need one.

I imagine solo healing would be a lot more popular if all the content worth doing didn't have a mandatory double healer check mechanic.
It literally has nothing to with the skill of the healers or the party, the game simply forces you to take a second healer if you don't want to be trolled by things like searing wind.

Honestly pathetic.

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Yep, pathetic indeed.
The two big factors for taking 2 healers into Ex and Savage are:
1) arbitrary invisible "targets two healers" mechanics.

e9s, e11s, e12s door boss are examples for this. They are impossible to reliably solve when having one healer as you cannot see who gets targeted and to whom it gets redirected if a 2nd healer isn't present. Many other bosses hat healer-targeting mechanics which can thankfully be seen (like Chain Lightning on e5s) and thus reliably be dealt with if the person targeted reacts in time. Entirely possible in pugs
That was also a reason why this team had to RNG fish. They weren't fishing for crit heals, they were fishing for the invisible healer mechanic not lawnmowing their entire party.

2) The-Site-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

If said TSTSNBN allowed to show solo healer comp kills without switching tabs on your profile, you'd see a lot more solo healer runs. The usual argument against someone solo healing a fight if we had trouble finding a 2nd healer wasn't "No, damage is too high, it's too risky". It was "No, I want logs".

And in DF it's impossible because DF enforces it. No "Join solo healer parties for full party content" option to tick.

I especially abhor the invisible healer targetting mechanics. That is just an incredibly lazy way to enforce 2 healer comps.