"balancing" some jobs

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

It’s happened. Many times. Maybe they blew their stuns/silence/Poly on my other teammates and when they came for me they had no CC. It’s happened. I’ve survived. Aspected benefic is instant and can double cast it for shield also using macrocosmos while running towards a potion if I am out of mana for recuperate. I’ve seen Whm do it as well. I’m not saying every match I was that lucky. If I am CC well then yeah of course I’ll die like anyone but it’s very rare that I die when I play Ast.

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See, you just said the reason you survive longer sometimes. So do I, but i also survive a lot as smn sometimes and as a sch too.
It is because people either have no resources, or do not want to waste them on only you.

This alone does not make ast op. Ast brings way more pressure than whm, that is true tho. People sleep on ast because "whm lazer so good and go brr and all that ree".

Nin definitely can be super annoying, but they alone do not benefit from all the power they have. They alone can not chain LB people. They need their team for plays like that. That does not make nin op.


Also Dancer LB has to work faster and be full 5 seconds always without the stupid hitting requirement. I don't understand why it's like this.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

[@Bureda] Sounds like you don't really know how to play NIN.

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You're correct. He’s also the guy who reached Crystal after 800 played games.

While Gserpent’s comments make more sense if you read them like it’s Opposite Day, Bureda usually misinterprets people he disagrees with to cope.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

"Apparently when a team focuses a person, the Ninja caused it. Damn that NIN kit is so busted!"
Try un-crossing your eyes and read again:
''If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply [double-stun], leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn''.
Where did I say NINs cause people to focus-fire? What are you on about?

"Ninja literally cannot stand toe to toe against other melee and has to kite."
Why are you dueling melees in the first place? Why aren't harassing squishier targets like healers and casters to screw up their effectiveness?
You treat CC like it's the Wolves' Den Pier duel arena.

These just provide more context to this post of yours:

https://i.imgur.com/9gyi28n.png

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I'm out.

Edit: Quote mistake

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WHM LB does a line attack for 18k potency, causes a stun, increases the damage the whm does to the target and increases its healing and gives a heal to the party.

DNC....charms the enemy team for 2s.......

To even try to make a comparison between the two is laughable.

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Did you even read what I wrote before you tried to make a cheap point? I wrote that that you cannot provide feedback on one job based upon that CC takes place in coordinated play, then turn around and state that another job should not be considered in the context of coordinated play.

You either compare all jobs in the context of coordinated play or you do not- you don't mix it up. Is that any clearer?

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Did you even read what I wrote before you tried to make a cheap point? I wrote that that you cannot provide feedback on one job based upon that CC takes place in coordinated play, then turn around and state that another job should not be considered in the context of coordinated play.

You either compare all jobs in the context of coordinated play or you do not- you don't mix it up. Is that any clearer?

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You absolutely can because how those LB's functions are completely different. One is just a stun that is absolutely 100% reliant on teammates utilizing it. The other is a stun but it also does damage and has other buffs/debuffs tied to them while also healing the team.

This isn't a one size fits all shoe scenario. All jobs CANNOT be compared in the same context because they all have their own quirks.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You absolutely can because how those LB's functions are completely different. One is just a stun that is absolutely 100% reliant on teammates utilizing it. The other is a stun but it also does damage and has other buffs/debuffs tied to them while also healing the team.

This isn't a one size fits all shoe scenario. All jobs CANNOT be compared in the same context because they all have their own quirks.

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The point is not whether the skills are different i.e. whether the LBs function differently, or even whether they would act differently in a coordinated context. those are completely different discussions.

The point is that you simply cannot start to make an argument and balance in light of coordination existing for one job, then turn around and act that coordination does not exist and balance another job completely acting what is a completely different hypothesis. You make your hypothesis, or design decision, however you would like to call it, and apply that to all of you consequent job discussions.

Here's a good balance. Force of nature now gets stopped by resilience. The fact that it doesn't is mind boggling.

First it was SAM now it’s nin jeez when does it end

Gserpent has solid points even if I disagree with some *FoN* cough I agree with the others and I have to apologize I see what you mean about positioning a lot more now

But you are fighting the hard fights good luck

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

You guys forgetting. Astro is the hidden gem here. They are extremely overpowered. I am saying this as someone who mains it in PvP. I can literally not be killed even when all 5 are on me. They can turn the tides of battle so fast it will make your head spin. Talking about War, Whm, Nin etc. Need to be looking at Astro.

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I agree. AST is insane right now. I'm glad they toned down Benefic but it still needs more reductions - why do they get a 10k instant heal while WHM has to stand still and cast for 12k and the other healers only get 8k? Why did they increase Macrocosmos damage when double Gravity was already the second-highest burst of any healer?

SCH is my favorite class and the one I play the most often, but AST is the only choice if you really want to try and push rank. It carries so much harder than any other.

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Originally Posted by Petite

I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

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You're defining escape differently than me. Stealth is largely unreliable if you are being actively attacked when you teleport. If it breaks - and it probably will - you're just going to have the MNK or whatever dash right back to you and keep thumping you. It is an *excellent* skill but it's not a very good escape skill because its escape component is so unreliable. It's basically on par with Elusive Jump (more flexible but EJ breaks binds and snares.)

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No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

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I mean, yes? You can literally just do the math, or just fire up ACT and spend a few minutes thumping target dummies. NIN has generally the lowest DPS of any melee, especially sustained, and that DPS becomes even lower if you force out a Meisui or Huton. NIN can do solid burst (typically Bunshin-Fuma-Mug-Edge-Assassinate-Hyosho) but their sustained DPS and DPS over time is substantially lower than MNK's and is equivalent at best to, say, RPR or SAM. NIN is also extremely twiggy if they go full nova and blow everything on burst - you're burning both mudras and your teleport to try and maximize damage output, which means you're meat for whoever wants you if it fails (or even if it succeeds, you might just get merked in return and turn it into a 4v4.)

You're right that NIN generally spends a lot of time at a distance throwing darts at people, but that's because they kind of have to. They aren't designed to get stuck in and things often go poorly for them when they do. At least compared to, say, a MNK. NIN LB is completely fine. 90 sec charge cycle and it doesn't snapshot, which means you can just pop a heal while the cast animation is firing off and the NIN just gets to pound sand unless their team can kill you in the few seconds Death Link lasts. Yes, it is *amazing* at sweeping, but that's literally NIN's job. They were a sweeper before and they are a sweeper now, too. If they have LB or are about to have it, play defensively and keep your HP topped up. Don't be greedy. It's fine.

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I won’t entertain this statement.

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Because you refuse to look at things holistically. WHM LB is incredibly overloaded because the rest of their kit is *garbage* compared to every other healer's. They get LB and they get polymorph and no one gives a shit about the rest because it's so forgettable. SCH, AST, SGE all have vastly superior kits to WHM and, arguably, have better LBs as well (SCH and AST are basically "we win this fight if you don't snap my neck right now") but on twice the charge cycle.

There's a reason WHM falls off *hard* in favor of AST in high skill games.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WHM LB does a line attack for 18k potency, causes a stun, increases the damage the whm does to the target and increases its healing and gives a heal to the party.

DNC....charms the enemy team for 2s.......

To even try to make a comparison between the two is laughable.

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DNC charms in an AOE for 2 sec, can be extended to 4 sec total, breaks Guard, and forces movement.

What happens when the WHM lasers someone with Guard up? Bunch of nothing. What happens when the DNC starts shaking their ass in front of someone with Guard up? They shashay their way right into the mosh pit and die like a chump. This is also why RPR has been seeing a *huge* uptick in play rates recently - it turns out that AOE "fuck you there's nothing you can do about it" is a *really* strong ability in a mode like CC. Like, you know how people bitch about Miracle of Nature being broken and disgusting and unfair because you can't Purify out of it and Resilience doesn't block it?

Yeah, DNC and RPR do that but it's in an AOE *and* it prevents you from moving (or at least, moving in a direction you decide.)

Honestly, I don't get the bitching about WHM LB. Every single LB, except for poor GNB maybe, is gamebreaking. AST gives their team 30% more damage and gives the enemy team 30% less damage and it travels with them. SCH pumps out a frankly absurd amount of healing with Seraph on the field. Bahamut does WHM laser damage in a *15 yard* AOE, follows that with an Akh Morn a few seconds later for more damage than WHM's Misery, and then proceeds to spit 6k damage at the lowest-health target in range. NIN can chain-neck snap people through Guard. WAR goes unga bunga and turns off enemy Guard for *15 seconds* (which is a guaranteed 30k damage on Cloud Nine assuming you have a pulse and know to save the LB for the next wind event.) PLD effectively gives complete and total invulnerability to themselves and their best friend and *50%* DR to everyone else. And so on.

Limit Breaks are all absurdly overpowered, by design. You have to look at the entire class holistically, though. Even if WHM LB is "overpowered," WHM as a whole is not. So it's fine.