Frontlines needs help. Crowd Control is insane, Limit Breaks are to powerful.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Firs of all nothing is too powerfull in FL... however the way they have allowed things to be is open for direct exploitation.

The thing is... they should not allow for multiple clases being the same class in each group, to take advantage and exploit the way up, permitting max 1 of each class can be done... you queu in.... you can only see 1 WHM... 1 SMN etc.... and enforce 1 tank 1 heals each group, with a max of two tank and heal slots that need to be filled upon entry or something down those lines.

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Think about it, how would that work when FL allows you to queue as any job then switch to any job? That's part of the core attraction for many people, definitely in the prior version when certain jobs really were closer to the PVE equivalent, and even now, it lets people adjust to whatever is better for the match. Not to mention, it keeps those people who want EXP happy too.

i have seen an alliance filled with the supposed meta jobs get absolutely blasted because those people had no clue about how FL worked- they didn't make use of syncing LBs and let the other teams get bhs. They went from 1st to 3rd place. So having multiple of 'x" job isn't necessarily bad.

Finally, I see you're using the term 'exploit" - hmm, it's not really an exploit if every team can do something, is it? I mean if one alliance decided to have (for example) a party of summoners which terrified you, what's to stop some people from either changing to SMN Or a job that shutdown a SMN? Nothing really.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Meta Classes in their current state, aten't as much of a deal as People make them out to be. Sure, their advantages are obvious on paper, but you are forgetting two things here and thats:

1st, the AVERAGE PvP participant is bad at the Game, like, really bad unlike before 6.1. where they could just spam Heal and run away unpunished, they actually have now to use the heal a bit more ressourceful without getting bonked immediately . I had a few times the Joy of fighting a 1vs1 Match aganist certain Jobs like NIN which many think OP, which absolutely isnt the case. Without the LB and the Stun it has, it hits like a wet noodle, so much that i can defeat it with MOST Jobs including BLM. Back then, it was unfathomable to kill a melee dps in a 1vs1 even without BH, hell a single melee dps could win 1vs3 aganist 3 ranged dps if the area had places to abuse LoS, and i doubt that is fairer than sometimes getting stunned.

2nd: Meta, as well as Prople who follow it, are predictable.
This is imo, the biggest weakness RDM, WHM, WAR and whatever Job you make it part to be has. If you die often enough, you can see that most People always use the same approach. Unlike pre 6.1 where you HAD to rely on others in order to kill anything outside of being melee dps, you can now use interesting approaches such as half your Team (or even all of them) choosing the same Job. Sure, SMN or SCH are the most popular choice, but have you given a thought or even seen what a full DNC Group that are all linked to the same Guy can do? How about 4 People going NIN and try to go commando (not talking about panties here) behind Enemy lines to LB down weak enemies that try to use Elixir?

While PvP is in its current state by no means perfect, it doesn't need to be it. It is a fact, that despite all claims on what People say aganist it, this form of PvP IS vastly superior than its predecessor in any regard and the activity of both CC and Frontline, as well as the fact on how many People you see hanging arround in Wolves Den, shows of its success and how well it is overall recieved.


Also on a sidenote, "Fun" isn't a good argument. Sure, it is important to enjoy the things you do, but using fun as a means to adress objectivity, is a moot point because Fun is subjective. Just as People can enjoy old pvp more than current, the same can also be said about People eho enjoy being on the recieving end of a abusive relationship, simply because it is fun.

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On your "1st"; I'm fully aware that the average player is bad, I experienced that early on. As a matter of fact, you can see these players simply based on their movement (Standard Movement Mode, when they should be in Legacy Movement Mode) (Note: I experienced this Standard Movement when I first spawned into the world and immediately knew, this movement was going to be a problem for future content involving combat (PvP and PvE)) or how about those players that have the title "Endwalker", yes, too many times have I seen players with the "Endwalker" title be absolute hinderance to the team I was in. About Ninja, so what you're saying the Ninja right now relies too much on their LB? Yes, that's a problem, it's almost as if Ninja pre patch was better. Also, you're beating these classes as Black Mage because as you stated earlier, the average player is bad. Go up against a good player and that story will be different. But, there are no good players anymore, only LBs (I got good at PvP Monk, after patch, I got 90 Botanist/Miner and leveled up crafters from lvl 20ish to 63-75 lol, meaning, I'm not a PvPer anymore in FF14 :ppepesad: (I still do 1-4 frontlines a week or so, but not as Monk. I would listen to Palazzo by Floyd Wonder, man, how that song went so well with pre patch PvP Monk).

"2nd"; You're right, meta tends to be a thing, especially in the other PvP games that I mentioned earlier. The way these FF14 classes are, every class is predictable BECAUSE it was made for simpletons. Hell, even in PvE, a Youtuber (Misshappen Chair) is grunting at the fact the the jobs are becoming too easy and the skill for such jobs is being removed. The dancer part, I have yet to see. Ninjas actually being assassins on enemy back lines? Yes, they are assassins after all, such playstyle IS to be expected of assassin classes (take for example NightBlades in Elder Scrolls Online or Infiltrators in Planetside2 (there could be 48+ infiltrators)).

"Fun" IS a good argument because this isn't a job (streamers, content creators are an exception (this could be a hobby, and they are getting paid, thus, having fun at their job)). "People eho enjoy being on the recieving end of a abusive relationship, simply because it is fun", what???? You mean masochist? The "hype" is dying, less and less people are at Wolves Den, and it's going to continue to decrease, I wasn't there when Feast was introduced, but I can safely assume that Feast didn't die off immediately, same concept applies to Crystalline Conflict update.

You're whole heartily attempting to defend Crystalline Conflict patch, meaning, the rework with these classes, which is fine. BUTT, you're arguments are not valid enough to justify classes relying on LBs to "pop off". There's a reason why, aside from this post, there are other posts complaining (and the replies that are in the majority, supporting the Posts) that there's too much Crowd Control, too powerful LBs, meta classes causing other classes a hinderance to the team (BLM in Crystalline Conflict for example), Polymorph being too powerful, 40y AoE stun that does 18k+ damage with some level of Battle High.

Forgot to mention New World, I'm a refugee from New World. Joined New World for it's open world PvP (like Runescape PvP servers or the Wilderness; Black Desert Online Open World PvP and Guild War declerations to include Node Wars).

As someone who has lots of "PvP Experience" (2k+hours of PvP in each game (except New World) and played such games for more than 2years+(less than a year for New World kekw); games I mentioned on the earlier post, that you replied too), this is by far, the worst experience that I, well, experienced. I no longer PvP other than doing 1-4 frontlines a week, hell, I log in, do retainers followed by Squadrons (Just got Captain) and I log off to PvP in Planetside2.

*Random Note not pertaining to this post* Honestly, I want my prepatch PvP Monk. I have lost, more like, it got taken away, my place as a PvPer who mained Monk in Frontlines, can't even listen to Palazzo without remembering prepatch Monk :ppepesad:

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Originally Posted by Kiao-Ken

About Ninja, so what you're saying the Ninja right now relies too much on their LB? Yes, that's a problem, it's almost as if Ninja pre patch was better.

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Every Melee DPS was better prepatch than it is now, and they deserve the nerf because before 6.1., Melee DPS was pretty much the only ROLE that could make kills on their own. Ranged DPS sometimes got lucky with well timed shots, but their damage output paled in comparison because of how little CC existed back then.

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Originally Posted by Kiao-Ken

You're whole heartily attempting to defend Crystalline Conflict patch, meaning, the rework with these classes, which is fine. BUTT, you're arguments are not valid enough to justify classes relying on LBs to "pop off". There's a reason why, aside from this post, there are other posts complaining that there's too much Crowd Control, too powerful LBs, meta classes causing other classes a hinderance to the team (BLM in Crystalline Conflict for example), Polymorph being too powerful, 40y AoE stun that does 18k+ damage with some level of Battle High.

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I am by no means saying that current PvP has not its issues, but i genuinely think that the current Toolkits are NOT one of them. I definitely agree that all kits are oversimplified for ease of access but i do hope, that it serves as a First Building Block to add more in the future, because as a foundation, it is quite solid. IF Squeenix ever decided to add, for example, something akin to Talent Trees or any form of customisation to influence those few Skills and add a few more ontop of the existing ones, i can see that things can become even better.

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Originally Posted by Kiao-Ken

I wasn't there when Feast was introduced, but I can safely assume that Feast didn't die off immediately, same concept applies to Crystalline Conflict patch.

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I can only say what i've been told from someone who apparently experienced it firsthand, so take my words with a grain of salt. Apparently, During Season 4-5 of Feast, Squeenix did a very radical change into the PvP youre familiar with pre 6.1, minor changes aside. Before that change, Feast and PvP was arround as active as it is now, but had ALOT of Skills to choose from, enough that the HUD back then couldnt cover all Skills and was considered as overcomplicated, here is a image of the Liveletter when those "issues" were adressed. Those changes caused arround 90% of the PvP community to abandon ship and turned Feast into the lifeless Mode everyones been familiar with.

https://ibb.co/2y679Rx

True, but there was a post called "Change frontlines to Rangelines" because almost every class was range dps. My screenshots of my max Battle High would show how intensive range dps were. There's still more range dps after update (Summoners for example). And I do agree, that Melee dps were good, reason why I suggested to add Elusive Jump (from Dragoon's Kit) to range dps classes. To work and make adjustments to what WAS working, not this whole rework where it's borked by LBs and Crowd Control.

2nd reply is fine?

3rd, I heard about it too, I joined a shellline or whatever is called, joined two discord servers for PvP in Excalibur server. So I have some idea of what you're talking about from those players whos been since release?.

What they really need to fix is the Paladin Hallowed + Guardian combo. It is absolutely broken in its current state when playing Danshig Naadam. Being able to guarantee capping a point with no way to stop them is baaad design.

What Frontline needs is incentives for winning that far, far exceed the rewards for just being there. I'm tired of waiting for days between each chance to make progress on One Steppe At A Time V, only to spend the whole day getting teams that don't care about doing what needs to be done to win because they can just run around for a few minutes and get half a level instead. Either go full everyone's a winner and make the achievements require nothing more than participation, which is something I personally don't want, or actually make losing feel like losing, by making the roulette give 0 exp/tomes for a loss and counting the roulette as complete, as well as removing exp rewards for coming last, while greatly increasing the reward for 1st place. Also bring back the 8-player premades, people who want to win need more control over how many other people who want to win they get on their team.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

What Frontline needs is incentives for winning that far, far exceed the rewards for just being there. I'm tired of waiting for days between each chance to make progress on One Steppe At A Time V, only to spend the whole day getting teams that don't care about doing what needs to be done to win because they can just run around for a few minutes and get half a level instead. Either go full everyone's a winner and make the achievements require nothing more than participation, which is something I personally don't want, or actually make losing feel like losing, by making the roulette give 0 exp/tomes for a loss and counting the roulette as complete, as well as removing exp rewards for coming last, while greatly increasing the reward for 1st place. Also bring back the 8-player premades, people who want to win need more control over how many other people who want to win they get on their team.

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If you want to win Danshig, the easiest way right now is to get a premade of 4, all go summoner and drop Bahamut on the enemy team at the same time. Pre-battle high you're looking at 72k Damage, not counting the 4 doing Wyrmwave or Ahk Morn.

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Originally Posted by Caddo

If you want to win Danshig, the easiest way right now is to get a premade of 4, all go summoner and drop Bahamut on the enemy team at the same time. Pre-battle high you're looking at 72k Damage, not counting the 4 doing Wyrmwave or Ahk Morn.

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WHM is arguably even better. It's only one shot but it's a 40 yard long laser for the same damage as Megaflare on a faster charge cycle, and layering Protect buffs gives your whole party a pretty healthy boost to survivability. You *will* need to have one of the four picking the target and the other three using a macro to target their target for proper laser placement, though. SMN is certainly easier.

Considering that frontlines isnt about 1 v 1, that point is abit off. Ranged had a specific purpose. But it required a skill level. Actually like all classes...

Knowing how SE treated pvp I really doubt we´ll see any real improvements soon.

I played these days and tbh it was really abit overkill, although I was kinda used to it coming from Aion.

And rewards...thats an old story...

Stack with combo 1 whm or ast + rest smn/drg

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

What they really need to fix is the Paladin Hallowed + Guardian combo. It is absolutely broken in its current state when playing Danshig Naadam. Being able to guarantee capping a point with no way to stop them is baaad design.

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And the only way of stopping is to jump in that pile with nukes and all as a monk or machinist and use knockback, praying that you do not die and the paladin isn't using guard...