"Button Bloat"

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Originally Posted by Quyn

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

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You're ignoring where I mentioned Warrior and Samurai being borderline unviable, together, in a crit heavy comp. To spell it out even further. A comp including the following jobs: WAR/SCH/SAM/DRG/BRD(or DNC) would border on unviability. Not that it couldn't be done but the overall loss of raid DPS simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

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First off, balance isn’t the be all end all of opinions or knowledge about this game. It’s not objective fact just because it shows up on balance.
Second, I think a lot of the frustration in theses changes can’t be justified with math. You can sit here all day telling people worried about these changes that “it’s only 3% guys”, but that won’t change the visceral reaction people have to seeing their Midares hit for 50-60k one day, and then barely able to break 20-25k the next. Yes, the balance math MAY be right, but all the math in the world won’t make seeing your Midare hit that low any less frustrating. Seeing a fucking SHINTEN crit more than a Midare crit is a special kind of pain to endure.
The kaiten removal was just an extra kick to the nuts, sure maybe it’s bloat, but there are way more appropriate places to trim bloat.

I’m willing to bet that most samurai against these changes could be compromised with if Midare and ogi got some of their potency back, and no amount of discord math can quell the confusion of losing more than 50% of the damage on your jobs STAPLE ABILITY.

MIDARE SHOULD NEVER, EVER, EVER, HIT LESS THAN A SHINTEN. FULL STOP.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

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Tell me you're bad at SAM and maths without telling me you're bad at SAM and maths. An other case of why should I understand when I could just follow.

Re: OP

How about they just merge Second Wind and Bloodbath and give it 2 charges to make up for the separate cooldowns and save a button on all melee dps instead of eroding jobs' unique kits.

Could do something similar on every role - they all have role actions that are either effectively useless or could be replaced by a second charge on something else the job already has.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Re: OP

How about they just merge Second Wind and Bloodbath and give it 2 charges to make up for the separate cooldowns and save a button on all melee dps instead of eroding jobs' unique kits.

Could do something similar on every role - they all have role actions that are either effectively useless or could be replaced by a second charge on something else the job already has.

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I feel like that's pissing on a forest fire. It seems like such a small change that doesn't really do much. I'll stand by the fact that they should be combining most (all) abilities that have single target and AoE versions.

Having an anemic AoE ability rotation taking up 20%-30% of your hot bar space that isn't used in a lot of content outside of dungeon trash pulls is silly. If they're afraid of doing it all at once, they can just slowly start combining everything.

Merging those 2 into the same thing could make a big change to how it works, bigger than combining abilities that do damage to 1 person vs many.

I wouldn't mind merging skills, changing them to be multi-functional. For Samurai various AoE versions with shared Cooldowns or Resources, merged to be multifunction for either say SingleTarget or AoE would create depth and make space for more new skills. If it's just merging to dumb down the Jobs we have purely for the sake of oversimplification and oversimplification alone? yeah... that's... yeah no...

I think we’re all forgetting something about Samurai Job,

Kaeshi: Higanbana is useless and could have been removed instead of Hissatsu: Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by RHarris1349

I think we’re all forgetting something about Samurai Job,

Kaeshi: Higanbana is useless and could have been removed instead of Hissatsu: Kaiten.

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Kaeshi: Higanbana also has no effect on either button bloat or action bloat, since it doesn't takes up its own hotkey and it's never used.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

…it's never used.

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Being my point. Data is data and if they’re having an issue consolidating the answer is right in front of them. Take away the ability that’s not used.

Icon, tooltip, space on multiple screens. They could have deleted it so long ago and no one would’ve cared.

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Originally Posted by RHarris1349

Being my point. Data is data and if they’re having an issue consolidating the answer is right in front of them. Take away the ability that’s not used.

Icon, tooltip, space on multiple screens. They could have deleted it so long ago and no one would’ve cared.

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It doesn't take up any hotkey space. You'd have a point if it did. But it uses the same hotkey as the other Kaeshi skills.

Button bloat = Too many actions that have to be assigned to hotkeys. Kaeshi: Higanbana is not an issue because it doesn't take up a hotkey.

Action bloat = Too many actions that have to be used as part of the rotation. Kaeshi: Higanbana is not an issue because it's not used in the rotation.

Removing Kaeshi: Higanbana will not solve either of the issues SE claims are reasons why they removed Kaiten.

There are more effective solutions, such as combining the buttons for Ikishoken and Ogi Namikiri, having Ikishoten upgrade Shinten/Kyuten to Senei/Guren for one use, increasing the cap on meditation stacks for Shoha, adjusting kenki cost and potency of Shinten, etc.