Stowaways in High-End Content?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Quite frankly: I dont know how my parse looks like. I'm sure it could be better.

I'm raiding with a group of friends who care more about having fun together (we usually try to go as blind as possible into Savage fights and only look at guides when we get fed up with mechanics) than about parses or group-meta. Some of these people I've met during ARR while clearing Leviathan EX and added the nice (and semi-competent) ones to a linkshell for that purpose. Over the years, said linkshell grew, by now most of us are also in the same FC - and in a very casual static.
It might take a while to build a community like that, but that is most certainly an option - if one can look past raw numbers.

You claim that you have trouble finding groups because no one does that [=looking past numbers] - but from your post it sounds a lot like that "no one" includes" you. You want the gates to just close behind you, to set a bar you know you can reach right now - and then raise it to make others jump higher.
ACT is not your problem, the way you play is your problem - you got an analysis what you can do to improve, ACT just makes that easier to figure out. So... improve? Thats what you wanted from everyone else, isnt it? To only join parties once they've imrpoved enough to pass your standards?

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((I had this whole thing and it was erased from my clipboard rip, synopsis time))
I don't care if the door closes in front of me. Honestly I quit raiding already because of this nonsense I'm just saying what I believe could be improved. The game wasn't designed for a near nonexistent human error. at least in the sense of class performance. I'm not saying people should perform poorly, every fight I bring my best and my best has improved with practice. But I also don't find myself not performing well enough to complete any of the content I do where I am. Parties go in two ways and correct me if its different for you. Parties either clear enrage, or die on the second mechanic. Rarely have I seen a party that makes it to the end of the fight with no deaths or mistakes and gets hard stuck on the enrage check. What I do see is sweaty perfectionists cutting it real close to telegraphs and mechanics they don't entirely know just to keep that virtual parse % up and risking themselves and the party. I may not be the best dark knight, or even a 'good' dark knight. but I'm not a bad player. and maybe when you start seeing me in parties where we 'actually' get to enrage we can talk about my efficiency but first you gotta talk to all the people screwing up basic mechanics or stowing away in parties they aren't cleared for. Thus the topic of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Sigh. Why is it always the same? Just a cursory glance at the data provided by that "very flawed program" has shown me that:

- you often break combo.
- you often weave as many as six abilities between two GCDs. The maximum amount you should be doing is two, btw.
- you are not using your offensive cooldowns as soon as they are available and are losing quite a bit of uses.
- you are using your personal and group mitigation abilities very infrequently and let them sit unused for most of the fight (two TBN uses over an entire fight level of bad, btw).
- you are very rarely landing five GCDs in Blood Weapon. Sometimes even doing as little as three.
- your general GCD uptime is around 80-85%. Which means that you are simply doing nothing for about 1/5th of the fight.

I'm sorry, but your parses aren't grey because of "act being flawed" or bad gear. They are entirely the result of your poor play and simply not pressing buttons. And even if we were to ignore the damage part, your tanking is very far from stellar as well. I'm not surprised that a static leader would refuse you. For someone who wants to get rid of "stowaways" in high-end content you have definitely been skipping on that humble pie.

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You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.
and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics. Y'know, the thing yoship actually intends for people to prioritize first.
The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

Are you actually complaining about players not being perfect in a prog party?

Last time I checked humans make mistakes and while I have learned the mechanics for Endwalker EX2 fight and have cleared it multiple times, I've yet to get through it without dying or getting a vuln stack. Doesn't mean I'm a stowaway if I join a prog party, It just means I'm not ready for a farm party with strangers as I mostly run with a static who uses discord for voice coordination.

ACT is a tool. Any static that solely uses the parse number and doesn't look into or ask about the why's isn't a static you want to join anyway. Even if you were someone who is playing at the top level of their class.

Players who properly use ACT are factoring gear into their interpretation of a person's parse. They're talking with the player to ask why a drop in the ABC - maybe their computer decided to minimize their game to inform about some update for a random program. And many statics will also look for multiple parses to gain a feeling of if the person is overall improving or their trends. And to remove the one bad run from consideration as we all have those days where we just play bad. If the one parse mentioned earlier was such a fun, any static worth their salt would know and either disregard or ask depending on number of parses available. If that run was an outlier, you're likely to remember the reason why.

Did you know that intentionally dying to mechanics in a prog party is not abnormal. Players will bait mechanics. While progging Endwalker Ex1, we had an early pull as we had someone seeing how close he could be could get and went one pixel too far. We had a melee DPS told to not worry about dying while seeing where the safe melee spot for a mechanic is. That that is part of progging. So the BLM standing in an AoE could be seeing how many casts he has until he sees to aetherial manipulate to a buddy and found out that number. So what you may see and think his a mistake may be that player learning the fight.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.

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You can hit the upper 25% in crafted gear, sometimes even fairly late into the tier. A moderately skilled player shouldn't have too much trouble hitting at least 50%, regardless of gear. I have never seen a fight where being geared and playing well would land you in the lower 10%, ever.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics.

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You cleared many, many months after the tier launched, probably while overgeared. Raiding right now isn't just about "not screwing up mechanics". The DPS check in the P4S doorboss is 48.3k, recruiting anyone that you aren't confident can contribute their fair share to meet that check is absolutely foolish. Not to mention, it's not that hard to find someone that can play their job AND do mechanics.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

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It isn't fair to criticize others for trapping you when you're playing at a level that effectively REQUIRES other people to overperform to clear the fight with you, be it in healing or damage.
You absolutely will not be able to pass something like the P4S door-boss at your current level of play without significant gearing. It doesn't matter how well you are pressing WASD for easy mechanics if you aren't contributing a fair share of damage / mitigation; Low damage is usually a sign of someone who is having to spend too much of their focus executing mechanics anyway, so I have significant doubts about your supposed consistency. EDIT: Yeah, you take vulns from avoidable mechanics in 4/4 of your EX1 kills, and 8/10 of your EX2 kills. You're not being honest with yourself, or anyone here.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.
and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics. Y'know, the thing yoship actually intends for people to prioritize first.
The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

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You completely missed his point. You aren't getting denied entry into groups because of "parse culture" or "better geared players playing identically to you". If better-geared players played identically to you, their parses would be bad too.

The trick with mechanics is that doing them right is the absolute bare minimum as far as being good at Savage is concerned. You don't become good just by not wiping the raid. You become good by not wiping the raid AND doing your rotation right AND maintaining as close to 100% uptime as possible. You can stand in as many right places as your little heart desires. It won't matter when the boss enrages at 28% because your DPS don't know their rotations and your healers spent their downtime spam-casting Cure 1 and Physick on the current tank. You still wipe and you still don't get loot.

Also, in the case of fights like P3S where there are still new mechanics to prog very late in the fight, the best thing you can do for your group is to work on optimizing the early sections while you're still progging. It's not like you have anything better to do while redoing the parts you already know for the 10th or 11th time, and it'll go a long way toward being able to beat the enrage when the time comes. Plus it'll help you not have bad parses in the end ;)

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It isn't fair to criticize others for trapping you when you're playing at a level that effectively REQUIRES other people to overperform to clear the fight with you, be it in healing or damage.
You absolutely will not be able to pass something like the P4S door-boss at your current level of play without significant gearing. It doesn't matter how well you are pressing WASD for easy mechanics if you aren't contributing a fair share of damage / mitigation; Low damage is usually a sign of someone who is having to spend too much of their focus executing mechanics anyway, so I have significant doubts about your supposed consistency. EDIT: Yeah, you take vulns from avoidable mechanics in 4/4 of your EX1 kills, and 8/10 of your EX2 kills. You're not being honest with yourself, or anyone here.

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Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them. You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time. I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them.

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I guarantee people aren't wiping you in P1S because of 'ACT culture'. Anyone who is motivated enough to care about parsing has been past that fight since week 1, probably day 1. It's significantly more likely that you're in a party with 7 people similar to yourself, and experiencing what happens when there's a critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party. Carrying a party isn't always about doing the most damage, or clutch healing either; Sometimes it's a matter of leadership and figuring out how to explain and organize strategies and mechanics in a way that makes the group successful.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time.

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You blamed "ACT culture" as the reason you are being denied entry to statics. We explained to you that it's much more nuanced than that, and that you're being rejected because your logs give the overall impression of an inconsistent player who has failed to grasp core concepts (weaving, mitigation) 90 levels into the game.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

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Getting hardstuck on p1s for that long is highly abnormal. Most groups, even casual, tend to clear it in 1-2 lockouts; It's likely there's something inherently flawed about the way you're approaching clearing the fight.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them. You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time. I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

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Those who care about their parse number care about doing mechanics. They aren't standing in AoE's because they want to get their DPS up. They are either making a mistake or they are learning the fight and are actively looking to see how long AoE's are there for and what the limit is on the range of AoE's that have no tells.

You do 0 DPS when dead. You can cause wipes if you are dead at the wrong time.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I guarantee people aren't wiping you in P1S because of 'ACT culture'. Anyone who is motivated enough to care about parsing has been past that fight since week 1, probably day 1. It's significantly more likely that you're in a party with 7 people similar to yourself, and experiencing what happens when there's a critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party. Carrying a party isn't always about doing the most damage, or clutch healing either; Sometimes it's a matter of leadership and figuring out how to explain and organize strategies and mechanics in a way that makes the group successful.

You blamed "ACT culture" as the reason you are being denied entry to statics. We explained to you that it's much more nuanced than that, and that you're being rejected because your logs give the overall impression of an inconsistent player who has failed to grasp core concepts (weaving, mitigation) 90 levels into the game.

Getting hardstuck on p1s for that long is highly abnormal. Most groups, even casual, tend to clear it in 1-2 lockouts; It's likely there's something inherently flawed about the way you're approaching clearing the fight.

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I think you hit the nail on the head with the whole "critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party" thing. The farther into the tier we get, the more good and decent players will have already cleared the fight and be hiding in Duty Complete parties instead of carrying people like OP to clears. Rumor has it there's a "chain sac" strat out there for P1S Fourfold now where the plan is literally to just have all 4 red chain players wall it and res them afterward... I am SO glad I cleared P1S before people decided that was a good idea, because now I can get my reclears every week with 7 fellow good players instead of having to put up with that. Nobody in today's party knew who "joonbob" is or how his strat works but we recleared in 2 pulls regardless.

OP won't have that fortune though. Statics won't take him because his logs are bad and the P1S PF community is losing more and more good players by the day as they clear and move on to P2S, leaving him stuck with people who can't do P1S mechanics right and fellow gray parsers. His best bet is to fix his own play, starting with the stuff Azuri listed, then get some more enrage pulls in, THEN apply to a static. If he gets his GCD uptime to 95%+ and starts mitigating and weaving properly and gets some logs like that on the record, then he'll have a much better case when he applies to the static and says "I can totally handle P1S, I'm being held back by PF bads"

Well, that and people label others who care about damage part of the ACT culture when there are people who don't even use ACT and just focus on resources like the balance to optimize rotation. The issue is that no matter how good someone is individually with mechanics and damage, if the group is full of inexperienced players or players that just fail mechanics consistently, it isn't going to matter.

I can tell you after swapping from warrior to reaper, I've had nights where I'm sitting there depressed, having used all tinctures, zero damage downs, full uptime, with the only sin being missing a gluttony window and being one second off on arcane circle, and you still wipe to p1s enrage because you have a black mage taking damage downs every other mechanic and a tank not going far enough out with chain of purgation. And then there is p2s where people can seem to execute everything right, but then it comes to overflow 3 and the party just dies due to not being on top of positioning after the first set of arrows go off.

With that kind of thing going on, can you really blame people wanting to use ACT just to make sure they aren't part of the issue? People are spending hours trying to clear and if they happen to make the brave sacrifice of running a static, they might even be giving up that ideal PUG clear window at the start of the week to try and get others through content.

And for the record I think the majority of woes with savage would go away if they changed the way they did the loot so that having people along who cleared doesn't reduce the reward. It's supposed to be a gating mechanic, but really it just enforces this day one "gotta clear this Tuesday or else" attitude. It generates the toxicity that lurks in the savage community probably just as much, if not more so, than bad players.

I'm also going to add that people who are new to savage and have challenges are not "bad players". The kind of people I'm referring to are those that have not even mastered the basics of their own rotations by level 90. The only thing people learn in savage is the mechanics of the fight and how to modify their rotation to deal with phases. It's not the place to learn basic gun breaker rotation or dark knight burst phases.