Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

but it will now probably encourage others to report more often for these sort of behaviors, since it's now set in stone.

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This is my biggest concern, as someone who does a ton of pugging in the first two weeks of a tier launch. People have to be replaced (kicked or asked to leave) pretty frequently, generally because they join parties under false pretenses (lying about prog so they can see more of the fight or clear). These types may be more emboldened to spite report upon being removed from parties.

Within days of the last time they altered the ToS, tons of people were unironically threatening to report each other in PF groups.

People talk beyond "o/" and "Hi" in PUGS?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This is my biggest concern, as someone who does a ton of pugging in the first two weeks of a tier launch. People have to be replaced (kicked or asked to leave) pretty frequently, generally because they join parties under false pretenses (lying about prog so they can see more of the fight or clear). These types may be more emboldened to spite report upon being removed from parties.

Within days of the last time they altered the ToS, tons of people were unironically threatening to report each other in PF groups.

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This should not really be a concern, if someone joined a group under false pretences then they cannot hide behind the TOS if they get kicked - unless people decided to harass them for doing so. As long as it is conducted with a modicum of common sense and those who claim to be in the right do not start name calling or otherwise give ammunition then all is well.

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Originally Posted by Bearded

I see nothing in the updated TOS that says you cannot call someone out on bad play - I do however so many examples on how NOT to call them out for bad play.

As with many things in life it is not what you say - it is how you say it.

Be constructive and if someone says sorry that's an acknowledgement they screwed up so there is no need to continue pressing them.

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This.
I sincerely don't understand how that's so difficult to get. Everyone makes mistakes but if you actually lend a hand by explaining what they're doing wrong and more importantly how to improve, then everyone wins.
The real issue is doing so without sounding like a jerk, that's what people seem to struggle with.
/shrug

Ah I was expecting a MPK thread on this.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

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And so we go round and round on this stool. It'd be a valid point if people were getting banned for such instances, but I can't help but feel like in the majority of cases these are people masquerading and attempting to shift the narrative when in fact they probably were being inappropriate with how they gave feedback.

What they see: "Please, can you pull bigger so we can use our full toolkit and be done with the dungeon faster"

The probable reality: "Thanks for making the run take 25 minutes, please don't tank again you suck at it"

Now if we want to use their own examples and be equally as pedantic, then there's a stark difference between consistently calling someone out and telling them that they cannot do something, versus giving a little encouragement.

"Hey, did you know if you stand here, and do [x], then you can avoid [y]"; "Maybe next time eh? / Let's give it a couple more tries", or then explaining a mechanic to an individual is not belittling said individual. It's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it" - Along those lines. Which quite honestly seems to be an ongoing problem.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

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Wrong. You know why you are wiping...you know the problem...you know how to correct it, but you bungle it by just saying " The DRG keeps messing up". This is petty and juvenile. Fixing the problem by creating a difficult finger pointing situation just compounds the issue.

It's easy to point a finger at someone and say "You messed up, STOP IT!". Does that really fix the problem? Hell no!

If you know the problem and the obvious solution...THEN (clap) GIVE (clap) THE (clap) SOLUTION (clap) TO (clap) THE (clap) PROBLEM (clap)! When I see the person that's causing the problem I don't single them out. I just ask "Any questions on tethers?" or "Any questions on when to use knockback immunity? Noticed had quite a few deaths during that. No harm in clarification." Crazy enough....people ask questions. "Hey, yeah when do you pop knockback immunity? Can't seem to time it. Sorry!"

Literally 4-5 people respond in chat on solutions. The person that was messing up now knows what to do. This happens ALL the time in PF.

I truly believe EVERYONE in this game want's to be the best they can be, and strive for that. Some people have a hard time asking for help, or don't want to seem stupid, or waste peoples time explaining. They get anxiety from just asking a simple question and hoping they don't get comment that makes them virtually die inside.

I try to explain fights as if I'm teaching my kids something, I ask questions. They are smart, but sometimes can't see the forest past the trees. The solution is there, but sometimes you have to find a better way to explain it so they come up with their own solution.

Example: I had to explain the meteor towers during first add phase in SoS EX to a new DPS. We share the same tower and they weren't making it to the ring at all. I just said, "Hey, (name) did you have question on the meteor towers?" They said, "What meteor towers?" The whole party spammed stuff about towers. I said, "Glad you asked (name), after you take your flare marker to SE corner and it goes off...RUN to the tower by 2 marker. Good?" The person said, "OHHHH THAT ring....I was confused." I said, "No worries! :D, just ask question if you get lost." They said, "Well i'm doing my best...first time in here"

Not everyone is born a pro....it takes time and experience.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Ah I was expecting a MPK thread on this.

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We got two MPK threads even, this one and the one about extreme raid progression or something.

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Originally Posted by rance-sama

This.
I sincerely don't understand how that's so difficult to get. Everyone makes mistakes but if you actually lend a hand by explaining what they're doing wrong and more importantly how to improve, then everyone wins.
The real issue is doing so without sounding like a jerk, that's what people seem to struggle with.
/shrug

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This person gets it.

You don't have to be an A**hole to make people better. Sometimes explanation and encouragement go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

And so we go round and round on this stool. It'd be a valid point if people were getting banned for such instances, but I can't help but feel like in the majority of cases these are people masquerading and attempting to shift the narrative when in fact they probably were being inappropriate with how they gave feedback.

What they see: "Please, can you pull bigger so we can use our full toolkit and be done with the dungeon faster"

The probable reality: "Thanks for making the run take 25 minutes, please don't tank again you suck at it"

Now if we want to use their own examples and be equally as pedantic, then there's a stark difference between consistently calling someone out and telling them that they cannot do something, versus giving a little encouragement.

"Hey, did you know if you stand here, and do [x], then you can avoid [y]"; "Maybe next time eh? / Let's give it a couple more tries", or then explaining a mechanic to an individual is not belittling said individual. It's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it" - Along those lines. Which quite honestly seems to be an ongoing problem.

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My thought exactly. We should PUG lol