I think, if they did anything with the ranged stuff, they should have an autocombo (think PvP) which works similar to MNK's combos (in that you can jump between single target and AE combos). Using Dragoon as our example still:Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Piercing Talon (Pot: 150) once hit can combo into Vorpal Thrust but also changes into "Dragon's Fang" (new ranged ability, pot 200) which can combo into Full Thrust but Piercing Talon/Dragon's Fang button turns into "Talon and Fang" (new ranged ability, pot 300). Potencies would have to be messed with, but the goal would be to continue to keep your GCD rolling since that's what is being complained about, but also make it so that doing the ranged combo would be better than sitting on the last hit of the melee combo.
However, "fixing" this would mean rebalancing damage to make up for the higher uptime, and I think that most melee players are generally fine with how encounters work. This seems like a "better" way of "fixing" the ranged attacks if you want them to be used to keep uptime though, rather than adding another fringe ability that isn't used very often.
Edit: Also, MNK actually would probably "need" a ranged attack to keep balance within melee classes
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03-10-2021, 12:18 AMLeonKeyh
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03-10-2021, 02:12 AMssunny2008First of all, your math lacks a bit. Your example was about the loss of 2 GCD´s, which means 300 potency with 2 range attacks. Then you´re going to start your combo again, which means you get additional 290 potency if it´s unbuffed. This means you´ve done damage with 590 potency. Even IF you´re at Full Thrust with its 530 potency, it´s still more to use 2 range attacks, isn´t it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Now we could go forward with FT until your combo ends, which means 530 + 370 + 370 potency at max. = 1270 potency.
On the other hand you could go those 2 ways: 150 + 150 + 290 + 350 + 530 = 1470 potency OR 150 + 150 + 290 + 320 + 330 = 1240 potency with the bonus to refresh your damage buff and DoT with 50 potency.
So what is more worth in the end?! We can´t even real argue about "but my later rotation gets delayed", because it´ll get delayed via downtime as it will get delayed with your range attacks. And if your combo isn´t at FT at this moment, the max. potency without range attacks is even less. The only thing that could change the overall math is the moment of your combo when prismatic starts, because it definately is a difference if you hit FT or TT as last hit.
In the end it might depend on the moment "where your combo is" and how things going on. But even if you would use PT only one time, it´s still a minimum of 440 potency compared to "nothing + the next combo skill". So tbh... just because someone in a guide or so says "it´s worthless", doesn´t mean that it´s worthless. It always depends on its use and the timing on any skill.
Second... i don´t dismiss my own argument. Those 2 GCD´s means nothing over the whole fight unless you wipe at 0,01%. You´re the one who has an issue with such RARE cases, not me. I gave you examples how to handle it, it´s up to you if you try or ignore them. The mechanic is playable.
Third: Changing range abilites to not break your combo or with superior potency would change a lot in kind of gameplay. You would use it at any mistake and you could ignore timings pretty much. It would make melees way more forgivable against their only con: "the need to stay in melee range". And yes, the AOE of DRG might have 20 potency more, but less range. I wouldn´t call it bad design, maybe "bad thought" when players can use the AOE instead of their range tool. But overall it´s a part of balancing and the big part of being a melee, is to stay in melee range. Any superior range tool will take out the effort a player needs to find a way around such situations. It would be laughable and boring af.
At last... E8s? There are tons of uptime strats and a lot is way easier to play for those who have both, backdash + dash (SAM & DRG). The only mechanic, where you would lose probably a half GCD with a good timing, should be Ilya with an orb-tether. I´ve never tried it, but it might be even possible to greed for the last GCD, run fast around your ball, jump to the boss, do 2 GCD´s and move in the tower. I´ve played it with SAM and used one range attack instead of a dash to the boss.
Another big mechanic would be the song of i&f. But if you play safe, you can surely go for the 3-4 range attacks since it should be even worth in your eyes. On the other hand... you can greed, jump to the boss and left-right-left on max. melee range to bait the aoe´s. Everything else got pretty much uptime strats or is really good playable with jumps / dashes. You just need to preposition yourself and time them.
(And well, you should keep in mind, that even the best pf-strats are not the best strats overall. A lot of stuff can be done better for the group or to cater a single player. E.g. It even makes a difference if i play M1 or M2 as MNK at E11s. M2 forces me to use my RoE more than M1 based on the RNG mechanics, unless the strat says "tanks + healer move".) -
03-10-2021, 03:31 PMSaidosha
Personally still think a lot of the 123 combos should just be baked into auto-attacks with compensatory actions added relative to where you might be in the chain or things your target is doing. Can certainly agree positionals suck when you can't do anything about them in a specific encounter and/or it feels like other classes DGAF, but the concept of conditionals is something I otherwise don't feel we should abandon.
Of course, I'd also like to see morphic buttons, improvements to macro latency, and possibly changing the desired timed buffs to instead be active per a set number of actions to help solve those issues of disconnect. Ability bloat has been an obvious worry in the game, and while precise rotations may not be mandatory outside of Savage content, there is still a certain rigidity that makes some classes less fun than others. Shifting things a bit away from maintaining a precise APM can also have the net benefit of improving player response to more complex mechanics. Of course, this would also mandate a balance pass over every instance of "DPS check or wipe" throughout the game, which is partially mandated by the coming stat squish as is. -
03-10-2021, 11:22 PMItMeSo... did you enjoy playing melee jobs before ShB despite these percieved issues?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
I disagree with you on basically every point lol.
Your frustrations can be summed up with
And... I believe this is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
Like... there's nothing inherently interesting to me about doing the same 2 minute rotation uninterrupted over and over and over again. At that point every boss is too similar to a training dummy with mechanics. So having to try and solve the problem of "the boss is throwing these hurdles at me, how do I work around them" is GOOD and shouldn't be boiled out of melee jobs.
I don't play ranged classes much because those classes largely can execute their rotation uninterrupted over and over and over again (especially MCH), but it sounds like they're exactly your speed. I see you main SMN. I'm sorry you don't enjoy melee, but not every role is gonna be for everyone and I don't believe your changes would really help the game. -
03-10-2021, 11:24 PMSqwall
I don't know this was pretty well written and it kind of pokes A LOT of holes in the melee class altogether from a design standpoint. I have been feeling this build up over the years from 2.0 til now, and I completely agree to almost everything here. Melee classes have gotten worse, and it's not their fault. It's the content that's changed that has made melee become worse to play.
I can see it in monk, nin, and drg. Monk especially since it was quite literally PUNISHED for not being next to the boss/mob, and losing your GL stacks. 5.4 noticed that and "fixed" monk. It's better to some degree and I love the freedom it offers, but there is still quite a bit of work left to do on monk. Get rid of forms and go to a straight up combo system, add finishers, get rid of stances, ADD ONE HUNDERED FISTS!
Melee classes from 2.0 haven't evolved as much as the caster or ranged classes have. When I play a ranged class it feels clean and simple. When I play caster it feels fun and rewarding while offering the same challenge that I get from ranged classes. MCH at 3.0 launch was complex, but rewarding. MCH had a come to Jesus moment when it saw Monk and said....don't let me become like that near the end of 4.0. MCH 5.0 was a disaster averted moment, and it's one of my favorite classes to play now. Just need to fix wildfire to actually be meaningful DPS.
Melee will more then likely never be tuned to the level of mages or ranged classes to be simple and clean.
Personally I believe a lot of melee classes could be freshened up by removing MOST positionals. Keep trick attack, keep bootshine, keep Chaos Thrust (but add a jump that keeps me in the air for 10 seconds until I decide to drop, just saying) -
03-10-2021, 11:58 PMSqwallI feel this goes against the ENTIRE idea of FFXIV being accessible to literally anyone. No job/class should be exclusive or allowed to certain players abilities . Every job playstyle should feel unique and engaging to play, and not relegated to "maybe it's just not for you" mentality. Because that mentality is what dictates how many tanks we have, how many healers we have. You could say the same about tanks, and "Maybe tanking just isn't for you..." That's ridiculous. Nobody thanks a tank at the end of a savage for doing it's job, and nobody will thank a monk for running around like a moron for being the best DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
In a game where there are literally MANY choices on what job to play at any one time, and virtually no alts to speak of? You're basically saying this game shouldn't allow players to play certain classes because they complain about the flaws you don't see.
Is monk flawless? HELL NO! But what I can't understand is why people defend it like it's perfect and should never be improved. TANKS aren't perfect, but DANG they are the best they have EVER been, sorry DRK. Face it though I can't find any glaring design flaws with tanks that make me go, man I wish I had "Flash" back. I don't miss Flash at all, because I got a NEW skill that is better. Everyone on these forums is just afraid of better for some reason....I don't get it. -
03-10-2021, 11:59 PMReynTime
I make use of Second Wind and Arm's Length often, so it'd definitely piss me off if they got rid of those.
I'm so tired of the game removing more and more versatility and utilities from DPS I play that I'd just play PLD for the rest of my time if that happened. -
03-11-2021, 02:16 AMLeonKeyhQuote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
The accessibility cry is BS. Accessibility is about lowering what is considered the "bare minimum" to a point in which it is accessible for a majority of people to do. Accessibility is about lowering the floor, not the ceiling. The floor for all of these classes is already VERY low. You can ignore half of the abilities, positionals, and mechanics of any of these classes and still manage to "beat" the game. That is accessible.
You and your kin are pushing to lower the ceiling (specifically, lower the ceiling that you guys are claiming isn't even that high to begin with). Positionals are not a requirement to reach the skill floor for any class. They're required to hit the skill ceiling for melee classes, and if the math that people are quoting for the value of positionals is accurate, then it's a very little part of the difference between the floor and ceiling.
I will concede to decisions and wants that lower the floor, THAT is accessibility. But things like this that lower the skill ceiling of a class are just spiteful complaints from people who want to be the best they can be but don't want to work for it. That's what this argument boils down to. Accessibility doesn't mean that you can be the best at whatever you decide you want to do. Accessibility doesn't mean that you'll enjoy every aspect of whatever content/job you decide to play. Accessibility means that you can choose what you like, and play it at a level that allows you to complete a majority of the game. It's not a pass to take stuff away from other people, stop using it as such. -
03-11-2021, 03:11 AMLyth
You can play any job that you like. That doesn't mean that you'll like it. Or be good at it.
Job variety allows you to pick the playstyle that suits you. If every job was designed to cater specifically to your own personal preferences, nobody else would have any choice. -
03-11-2021, 03:13 AMItMeThis... isn't about accessibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
I'm not sure where this statement is coming from.
This is about melees being built around trying to get uptime and how OP doesn't enjoy that gameplay.
That's what I'm going on about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
One man's trash is another's treasure.
What are flaws in melee design to them are the strengths of melee design to me and many others.
Are they perfectly implemented?
Nothing is perfect.
But OPs suggestions to wholesale removed or drastically minimize these elements is not the way to perfect that.
I'm not saying "this game shouldn't allow players to play certain classes" at all. NO idea where you got something like that. I'm saying you can play the class all you want and I hope you can enjoy it, but the changes being proposed come with flaws that you don't see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall