the dragoon is penalized

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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I mean you're not wrong, and it hits upon the major problem with the complaint. It's not 'Dragoon doesn't have these buttons' it's 'I want to save these buttons for a different thing so I'm going to pretend they don't exist and do exactly the thing I am asking to do.'

And, I mean, yeah, it is entirely a thing that a Dragoon could elusive jump to avoid a mechanic then spineshatter back in. This is an option they have. It might not be optimal, but it is there and for someone who isn't chasing gold parses, it's a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Renkei

Ya DRG Doesn't have a Gap Closer since it Relies to Heavily on them for Damage, so it uses Elusive Jump. Which for some Strange reason doesn't buff piercing Talon for a disengage option.

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Mightn't that be because they want to leave it as equally useful for engaging? Let's face it, it's more often going to be optimal to get your last GCD in at the last possible moment before sprinting out of an AoE, and to then use EJ to engage back in, than to EJ out and Sprint back in.

I'm not saying Piercing Talon doesn't deserve a buff. Enpi is 228 potency base or 428 with Enhanced Enpi (from the Yaten disengage). All the other ranged skills are pathetic by comparison, and DRG's tight CT timer and long rotational string lengths mean that it even further costs and more frequent lock-outs to using its ranged skill than any other melee. SAM > NIN/MNK > DRG, essentially. Meditation needs a scalar buff. Throwing Daggers needs a straight buff and maybe a flexibility buff. Piercing Talon doubtless needs both for it not to be relegated to lucky downtime mitigation and a Eureka pulling skill. But you don't need to -- nor should you -- tie that into Elusive Jump.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mightn't that be because they want to leave it as equally useful for engaging? Let's face it, it's more often going to be optimal to get your last GCD in at the last possible moment before sprinting out of an AoE, and to then use EJ to engage back in, than to EJ out and Sprint back in.

I'm not saying Piercing Talon doesn't deserve a buff. Enpi is 228 potency base or 428 with Enhanced Enpi (from the Yaten disengage). All the other ranged skills are pathetic by comparison, and DRG's tight CT timer and long rotational string lengths mean that it even further costs and more frequent lock-outs to using its ranged skill than any other melee. SAM > NIN/MNK > DRG, essentially. Meditation needs a scalar buff. Throwing Daggers needs a straight buff and maybe a flexibility buff. Piercing Talon doubtless needs both for it not to be relegated to lucky downtime mitigation and a Eureka pulling skill. But you don't need to -- nor should you -- tie that into Elusive Jump.

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Probably not because i only really use Elusive Jump for engaging back with the boss, rarely do i use it for disengaging, its for sure a skill based gap closer, i just wish they increased dragoons difficulty outside their gap closer - Dragon-sight doesn't count, I'm afraid next patch they are going to get out shined unless they do something about the CT Timer, with all the buffs they are proposing for Ninja and Red Mage they gotta be very careful with balancing red mage looking at the Metadata bard needs a buff, Ninja needs a buff to Disengage damage to help with aDPS, Samurai is fine, Piercing Talon is a waste of a Slot in its current state, As for the other jobs the problem is the disparity between Melee jobs, Honestly i'd rather them just increase the skill ceiling to decrease the disparity The problem is theres jobs that are harder to play that have no reward compared to jobs that are easier to play and have to much reward. (Bard for Example by design should deal more personal damage then a dancer but not 1400 less then MCH all together.), higher risk should come with higher reward, they don't need to homogenize the game people can learn how the master the game and no be excluded from content by putting time into the game and practicing. I just want to see more Positional attacks for precise play added but they keep coming out with Radial bosses and it does make it harder to balance Ranged with that problem.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Are you suggesting we hold one of our damage dealing gap closers the entire fight... in case we need it to gap close?

Ok so what's your real suggestion, because no dragoon who plays endgame is going to do that.

Honestly since they took off the dive stacks and stun from spineshatter, they should just remove the damage and make it a 30-60s gap closer. They can re-rout a bit of potency to StD to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

I'm pretty sure if you're a good enough player to make it through end game content that you can make it through a fight if you happen to use one of your offensive jumps as a gap closer. Really, how much of a dps loss is ONE skill over the course of a fight?

Besides unless I'm missing something that damage would be made up by any couple random crits that occour.

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Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency (IE, an entire Melee LB1) and that’s without considering what they gain from Dragoon’s own buffs, party buffs, or the fact that these skills can themselves crit. That’s more than what random crits on other skills will ever hope to make up.

The incentive on Spineshatter Dive and Shoulder Tackle to be used as damage really undercuts their usefulness as movement tools, even with charges on them to help mitigate that.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency (IE, an entire Melee LB1) and that’s without considering what they gain from Dragoon’s own buffs, party buffs, or the fact that these skills can themselves crit. That’s more than what random crits on other skills will ever hope to make up.

The incentive on Spineshatter Dive and Shoulder Tackle to be used as damage really undercuts their usefulness as movement tools, even with charges on them to help mitigate that.

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It's not exactly a loss that large. I dont believe people are saying to hold that SOLELY for a gap closer, more of a situational thing like holding onto it for a couple gcds to close back in, not enough holding to decrease the total number of those cooldowns over a fight, situationally based on whether or not that brief hold would be a gain over potentially losing 1-2 gcds of movement. And holding an ability isn't a loss of that action's potency, you're using other gcds during that period.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It's not exactly a loss that large. I dont believe people are saying to hold that SOLELY for a gap closer, more of a situational thing like holding onto it for a couple gcds to close back in, not enough holding to decrease the total number of those cooldowns over a fight, situationally based on whether or not that brief hold would be a gain over potentially losing 1-2 gcds of movement. And holding an ability isn't a loss of that action's potency, you're using other gcds during that period.

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That, and 2400 raw potency over a fight is but a smidge of damage compared to the damage output of 8 people over all of that time.

A bladedance barely pokes the last 5% of a boss's HP (even less if we're talking about an 8 man fight). Heck if you try to wait until 10% left before using it to finish him with it, he will likely die before you even get it out or you'll shear the last 1% off. 2400 potency is a drop in the bucket when you got 8 people wailing away on him unless you're talking about a 2400 potency GCD (which we're not, we're talking about 2400 potency over multiple GCDs during the entire fight).

And as the person I just quoted said, you can't even count it as a potency loss because you are doing other attacks during that period of time. Heck, True Thrust is 290 Potency while a Blood+Spineshatter is 320 unless I somehow got the math wrong, Vorpal is 350 and Full is 530.

So just your basic rotation does just as much as, if not more than, Spineshatter with Blood up depending on where you are at in the Rotation at the time.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Holding onto Spineshatter Dive over the course of a ten-twelve minute fight and only using it as a Gap Closer once or twice would be a loss of around 2400 raw potency

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While true, the suggestion is to hold onto it when you know you're going to want to use it. While it's a potency loss to do so, it's a fraction of the loss you're suggesting, given the original problem was an OP pretending DRG had no gapclosers at all.