It being completely unbalanced for dungeons and 24-mans is still being unbalanced for a discernible chunk of the content, especially considering that AD is an AoE ability which is designed primarily for using on groups of enemies which you will mainly be dealing with in dungeons and 24-mans. Making AD intentionally unbalanced in its primary usage scenario just doesn't make sense. Besides there are ways to make the ability much better for single-target situations while still keeping it balanced for AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85
I feel too many people are way too hung up on the way DRK used to be, decrying changes that were made even when they needed to be and frankly, spammable AD self-heals needed to be changed. It was not at all balanced, and let's be honest here, that is precisely why players loved it so much, because it was crazy overpowered and pretty much made DRKs unkillable self-sustain murder machines in large pulls. So again, while fun, it needed to go just like the crazy self-healing from IR+Steel Cyclone needed to go.
Now don't get me wrong, I feel that the devs have somewhat missed the mark with their current implementation of Abyssal Drain and I quite forwardly state my issues with it in threads on this forum, but at the same time I understand the reasoning behind the changes and how they were arguably necessary to make the different aspects of the tanks more in-sync with each other.
As for Abyssal Drain's "niche", it is quite obviously supposed to be that of a larger self-heal like Equilibrium and Aurora, it just doesn't perform so great at fulfilling its niche in single-target situations which is an issue that I bring up almost anytime this ability is discussed.
Lastly, Abyssal Drain is already pretty balanced with its equivalents on the other tanks in regards to groups of enemies; so how is making it a spammable GCD like it was going to help where it is having trouble, in single-target?
That would just make it super overpowered in multi-target situations and a noticeable dps loss in single-target, basically exacerbating the disparity that the ability already has in those situations.
It's main functional issue as it is, is the interplay between it and Soul Eater's larger heal in single-target and how it is too spread out to be truly effective in practice while seeming equitable to other tanks like WAR on paper.
As for 60s being too long of a recast, I mostly agree but I feel that is a general issue with DRK and that the job could really use having more frequent OGCD use overall to help smooth out the periods between it's big bursts. WAR too tbh.
I've already gone into great detail on what I think could be done to improve Abyssal Drain which covers both improving it's single-target potential as well as making it have a shorter recast, in my thread that I made a while back (here).
Here is the snippet on Abyssal Drain from that thread ...
Abyssal Drain heal in single-target vs. packs and frequency of use
Currently Abyssal Drain's heal is heavily skewed towards packs, providing a 200 potency cure per enemy hit, which is awesome when you are facing large packs of six or more, but is extremely lacking in most difficult content which is primarily single-target. Even wall to wall dungeon pulls tend to hover around 6-7 enemies which makes Abyssal Drain's heal pretty much break even with the healing from Equilibrium and Aurora in the place where it should really shine since it is lackluster in single-target.
I feel that this division between single-target and pack usage needs to be reigned in, improving its strength in single-target situations while still keeping it slightly skewed towards being better in packs. The way that I propose doing this is by rolling the DoT aspect from Salted Earth into it and applying a singular HoT on the player on ability usage.
In addition I would like to see Abyssal Drain available more often simply because I would like to be able to weave oGCD abilities just a little bit more and reducing it's recast from 60s to 30s while adding the DoT and HoT effects to it would make it sort of like the DRK version of Circle of Scorn but it heals you as well. This would be nice because as stated earlier, DRK does now feel quite similar to WAR and I feel that pulling in aspects from DRK's thematic opposition, PLD, would help give DRK more of its own unique feel and help solidify the connection to PLD.
This would result in a slight damage buff, but I feel that it would be fairly negligible overall.
Abyssal Drain proposed solutions.
- Recast reduced to 30s instead of 60s.
- Damage potency reduced to 100 from 200.
- Cure potency reduced to 100 from 200.
- Abyssal Drain now also applies a damage over time effect to enemies for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total per enemy).
- Abyssal Drain now also applies a healing over time effect to self for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total)(applied on ability use and not per enemy hit).
- *UPDATE* Potentially lower Soul Eater cure potency to 250.
- *Update 2* Allow Abyssal Drain to hold 2 charges like Plunge.
* In single-target this would equate to 600 potency of damage and cures every 60s vs. the 400pot damage and 200pot cure of current AD + Salted. At 2 enemies it would be 1200pot damage and 800pot healing vs. 800pot damage and 400pot healing. 3 enemies, 1800pot damage and 1000pot healing vs. 1200pot damage and 600pot heal. Basically being a consistent 50% damage and 400 cure potency boost, no matter the # of enemies compared to the current AD and Salted, which tbh are a tad underwhelming as they are and make up very little of DRK's overall dps.
***UPDATE*** If the above suggestion is seen as providing too much self-healing for DRK in single-target situations, if you factor in the strong heal from Soul Eater, I would suggest potentially reducing the heal on Soul Eater to compensate which would shift DRK's self-healing to be a bit more bursty, allowing them to direct when they get that healing a bit more. If Soul Eater's heal were reduced to 250 cure potency, that would even out the 400 cure potency gain from the above suggestion. This would put DRK at ~2600 cure potency every 60s versus WAR at ~2700 in single target, which is where it is now just shifting the heals from being spread out in the combo to more concentrated into small bursts from AD.
***UPDATE 2*** I feel that Abyssal Drain with it's newly proposed 30s recast should be able to hold 2 charges like Plunge does, providing greater differentiation in the way DRK's self-heal kit works as well as providing more flexibility in condensing two AD's close together for better burst healing.
5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework
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09-25-2019, 04:26 AMTouchandFeel
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09-26-2019, 03:00 AMshao32
well today i will post a few ideas for a delirium rework in order to bring some suggestions to the devs, if they get popular i will add it to the main post:
simple rework will be make delirium a 30s recast buff of a duration of 3s in order to get 2 bloodspillers to a total of 6 in the 90s window, in resume it's the most simple i can imagine, we will get 1 extra bloodspiller on the same window of time on result and some extra mp but DRK could get that dps buff.
the other one will be make delirium a 90s recast buff like now of a duration of 20s that grant blood overtime, tics of 10-20 blood increasing the amount of bloodspillers on a non-spaming way archiveing the same but in a diferent way.
any dps ajustment can be done too on abyssal drain, salted earth, living shadow and carve and spit to get the dps missed by any rework and will make abyssal drain and salted earth less awful for example. -
09-26-2019, 04:02 AMTouchandFeelHmmm ... that's an awful lot like Bloodfest on a 30s recast, so while it differentiates it from Inner Release, it is still sort of similar to the mechanics of another Tank. So I see it as neither a step forwards nor a step back, but more a shift to the side in regards to making Delirium unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
It would weaken the burst period at 90s, providing at most 4 Blood Spillers/Quietuses if the DRK goes into it with 100 Blood which is potentially problematic, so more likely only 3 Blood Spillers/Quietuses during the 90s burst period.
On the other hand, it would enable an extra 2 Blood Spillers/Quietuses during the 60s burst period, enabling around 3-4 Blood Spillers/Quietuses when stacked with Blood Weapon during the 60s burst.
Then, you would get an extra 2 Blood Spillers/Quietuses between the burst periods, so basically you lose one Blood Spiller/Quietus during burst periods (2 at 60s + 2 at 90s vs. 5 at 90s), but gain 2 Blood Spillers/Quietuses outside burst periods. That seems approximately equitable dps-wise and mainly spreads things out a bit.
I think it's strongest aspect is that it should be relatively easy to implement since it would simply require changing the recast and duration times.
I give it a B, it works to change things up but I don't really see it making things all that more interesting.
I could see this being a good first step to making Delirium unique, but I would still like to see another aspect to it, at least eventually.
For example, if this idea were combined with the suggestion that I made a while back (here) of giving DRK a Confiteor-like ability to use under Delirium, the two would work together quite well essentially giving DRK a special two-step combo every 30s, making Delirium a bit like a shortened Gnashing Fang combo, a bit like Requiescat+Confiteor and a bit like Inner Release, all while not being exactly like any of them. It would also give DRK more varied buttons to press regularly as well as help with the complaint that I have seen raised that the Blood Spiller animation doesn't look good when done back to back.
Mix the two together and I think it would be a winner.
Oh, I still think that DRK needs more frequent OGCD usage regardless of the above changes.
Really don't like this suggestion. It's basically a Blood only Blood Weapon with a longer duration and a longer recast. Not only would it be boring to have two abilities that essentially do the same thing, but it would also mess up DRK's burst by making it no longer fit well into raid buffs since it is spread over 20+ seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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09-26-2019, 04:37 AMshao32mmm i don't consider it like bloodfest, well yeah both gratn 2 uses but thats the only thing, bloodfest grant resources and delirium will grant a buff that allow you use 2 bloodspillers together for free in a more strick way bcs you have to use it on that moment or you will lose it even if is not a buff and are like atonement charges then they will look a lot like PLD stuff, but thats meaby my impresion so you can be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
apart of that I like you proporsal to my first option, they could use power slash for that purpose, the skill is cool and impactful and since power slash have an dark explosion it could be used with quietus as an aoe combo too. Another great point will be it grants a certain feeling of sinergy since it will work under bloodweapon window too combined with a dutarion of lets say 10s to use that combo will allow DRK plenty room to place the buff and use the combo without having much oGCD traffic under blood weapon.
outside of that i think combined with a abyssal drain recast reduction to 30s (with his potency and heal nerfed too like your sugestion) will make DRK more active under the bloodweapon downtime, carve and spit should remain the same to don't disturb the MP economy except delirium no longer grant MP so it could get a recast reduction too and for salted earth idk that to do with that thing actually. -
09-26-2019, 05:12 AMTouchandFeelIt's similar to Bloodfest in the way that you said, while not providing it through resources, it is still providing two usages of a gauge-spender skill. So not exactly the same but still pretty similar in practical usage. Not really important though, just my general feelings on how much it would feel different from other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
While you point out that Power Slash has an explosion as part of its animation, it is quite small and as a whole doesn't really read as an AoE. It would really need to be something new that is visually impactful to read well and convey a sense of power and scale.
I'm still partial, and admittedly biased, to making it look like a "DRKed up" version of Cloud's Meteorain limit break, replacing the meteors with large orbs of dark energy. I called it Nightfall as an additional homage, since that is an ability used by the Dark Knight form of Cecil in Dissidia, and the name conceptually makes sense with the proposed animation.
I'm not sure that removing MP gain from Delerium would be a good idea, and I would personally prefer to keep it and maybe just tweak the MP values to fit the altered Deleirum. If the MP were removed from Delirium, I would definitely like to see the MP gain from Carve and Spit increased and/or the recast reduced.
Oh, and just for some general clarification. While I am calling it a "Confiteor-like" ability, it would not need to work exactly the same as Confiteor since the duration of Delirium with the proposed changes would be so short that the whole "ends the effect of ..." aspect would be pointless. It could really just be an ability that can only be used under the effect of Delirium and just has a recast of like 10s or whatever so that it could only be used once during Delirium but would still be back up for the next one. -
09-26-2019, 06:47 AMshao32ill buy it, i don't really see them making a whole new skill mid expansion but i really wish they make the effort for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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09-26-2019, 07:48 AMTouchandFeelNor do I, but I can always hope for something like that and keep suggesting it in hopes that it will maybe stick, if not now then to be added in the next expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
If the suggestion you made for Delirium were implemented in 5.X as the first step towards that, I'd be mostly okay with it but would still prefer the full set of changes as it would feel like a more complete game-play package and to be honest, DRK and WAR kind of feel like they are one expansion behind in regards to game-play within their kit, like they are just missing that one extra game-play hook or ability to bring things to life. So close but just not quite there.
Also, having my suggested ability, Nightfall, be the last ability that your Living Shadow uses before it despawns would look awesome and make Living Shadow much more impactful imo. Sigh ... one can dream. -
09-26-2019, 01:34 PMshao32
I have to agree, both jobs feel incomplete, at least WAR have some sinergy on his mechanics and feels great on aoes for me probably bcs the nostalgia that nascent flash offers.
For DRK yeah it's a fact it's going to be a simple job the entire expansion and will feel incomplete no matter what but I hope they listen and make the effort to make it unique at least now so the ppl that abandon the job like me bcs feel to much like WAR could have fun with his favourite Job again.
Also they have to do something with the living shadow timer, same with darkside, both are a pretty fancy number to watch but meh, meaby next expansion. -
09-26-2019, 07:01 PMJandor
Delirium should remove MP costs for duration.
It's still a spam window, but at least it's oGCD spam which differentiates it a bit from Requiescat and Inner Release. Increases APM too, which should give more of a sensation of speed.
I support the Abyssal Drain holding 2 charges idea.
Maybe instead of 30s CD, Quietus should lower Abyssal Drain cooldown by 5s per enemy hit?
Dark Mind having 10% physical damage reduction as well sounds nice. -
09-28-2019, 08:20 AMTheRealQuah
Dark Knight is in a great spot right now. Blackest Night is objectively the best skill in the game. Living Dead could be made better but it's okay tbh. People use it at the wrong times and complain it kills them. 90% of the complaints on this forum are from the same 2 people.
DRK was the least played tank in ShB and the most complained about class in general. They've fixed it and is now the second most played tank. So the majority of players are liking the changes.
You can't enjoy every job in the game. I've always played WAR but I just can't get on with it anymore, so I've switched.