New Healer Job Suggestion: Necromancer

*Obligatory "but we already had this (kind of, sort of, maybe) in the original Thaumaturge!" comment*

Serious now:

I certainly enjoyed "Fistweaver", but it's hard to picture how exactly that style would apply towards the suggested Necromancer here...

To me, Necromancer feels like it ought to be a utility caster, whose resource for damage dealt just happens to be rather good for "death-eating" and "reanimating" (or, in practical terms -- healing). I just... cannot envision it as a full-fledged healer.
So I guess I'm stuck at the "Would love it... once hybrids can actually be a thing, content is decently varied, the game feels a bit more like an RPG, and job identity truly means something" stage again...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Then please explain to me why Scholar and Summoner share a skill called Resurrection.

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Literally: Rise again/against. Doesn't technically have to be dead. Nations resurrect. Ideas resurrect. From obscurity. From oppression. Not necessarily from death, or even metaphorical death. When you take to your feet again and rejoin the fight, you have resurrected.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Further, a large part of the Conjurer questline is the concern that Sylphie's attempts to cast Raise will trade a life for a life.

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Because of how she is casting it, not out of concern for the spell itself. She was supposed to harness the elements as per Conjury. Instead, she was harnessing her own life force. That's a Sylphie problem, not a Raise problem.

So many possibilities to create a new and fresh healer, and yet we are stuck with 3 healers...

Necromancer could have an aesthetic similar to Edda and Scathach, use a scythe or a lantern (tomberry style).
Death theme could bring many people trying and enjoying healing.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

So many possibilities to create a new and fresh healer, and yet we are stuck with 3 healers...

Necromancer could have an aesthetic similar to Edda and Scathach, use a scythe or a lantern (tomberry style).
Death theme could bring many people trying and enjoying healing.

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Like DRK did for tanking... Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

*Obligatory "but we already had this (kind of, sort of, maybe) in the original Thaumaturge!" comment*

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Ah, so you're saying there's precedent. Marvelous.

I mean... unpopular opinion, but I still would have liked to see all the job branches once intended from each job, a la Summoner and Scholar from Arcanist. Not that I consider the system entirely practical of course, just, something of interest.

I could see Necromancer as a branch of Thaumaturge and Geomancer from Conjurer, particularly given the Geomancers seen in the 60-70 AST questline and Swallow's Compass.

Yes, I know it was scrapped with good reason, but it doesn't hurt to dream.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To me, Necromancer feels like it ought to be a utility caster, whose resource for damage dealt just happens to be rather good for "death-eating" and "reanimating" (or, in practical terms -- healing). I just... cannot envision it as a full-fledged healer.
So I guess I'm stuck at the "Would love it... once hybrids can actually be a thing, content is decently varied, the game feels a bit more like an RPG, and job identity truly means something" stage again...

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To which I would rebut that all of the healers we presently have are already effectively DPS hybrids, particularly (albeit not limited to) Scholar.

Thing is, if Necromancer was delivered as a straight DPS class with high utility, we're looking at what is effectively Summoner Redux -- which I would imagine is quite the pill to swallow in itself given the polarized views on the Egi/Demi-Primal system.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Literally: Rise again/against.

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You sure had to do some digging for that.

You're right in that the etymology is thus: Middle English: from Old French, from late Latin resurrectio(n- ), from the verb resurgere ‘rise again’ (see resurgent).

On the other hand, the definition of "resurrect" is almost universally "to restore life to or revive as a practice", with immediate connection to religious and mythological raising of the dead. Synonyms include reanimation, rebirth and anastasis.

At any rate, I'm not entirely sure why this fact is being argued given that I highly doubt any type of allied necromancer would be raising their fallen comrades as zombie minions.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Necromancer could have an aesthetic similar to Edda and Scathach, use a scythe or a lantern (tomberry style).

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I was thinking scythes or ritual knives/athame. The latter gives more of a sense of sacrifice.

A lantern would be a bit too Tonberry for my tastes.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Ah, so you're saying there's precedent. Marvelous.

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It was the life-death class, but more in the sense of Astral-Umbral magic (with a side of Poison and Blood -- there were many more damage types originally, even including, say, Sonic, if I recall correctly). It was originally based on the deities popular in Ul'duh, hence its being based in the temple -- balancing life and death, longevity and quality, etc. To be precise, it was more Oracle or Mystic than Necromancer, and very well placed in the XIV setting (where I worry, like many others here, than a straight-up Necromancer would not be).

You could Sacrifice personal HP to HoT allies (a it like your Affliction->Healer_Via_Excess style mentioned), you had pretty damn nifty nukes in the form of the surprisingly powerful baseline Banish and Scourge (atop Dia and Bio as DoTs), and a good bit of utility (including Dreadspikes and a couple other defensive/reactive spells). Overall it's a class I'm sad to have lost in that it felt particularly unique and well tailored to the setting, but I don't hugely miss the aesthetic itself.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I mean... unpopular opinion, but I still would have liked to see all the job branches once intended from each job, a la Summoner and Scholar from Arcanist. Not that I consider the system entirely practical of course, just, something of interest.

I could see Necromancer as a branch of Thaumaturge and Geomancer from Conjurer, particularly given the Geomancers seen in the 60-70 AST questline and Swallow's Compass.

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About the same here, though I'd prefer using the different schools of magic alike to weapon proficiencies from which to craft one's own style of magic (just as I'd like jobs to be able to mix or master from weapon types to arrive at said jobs). Which is... even less practical. By far.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

To which I would rebut that all of the healers we presently have are already effectively DPS hybrids, particularly (albeit not limited to) Scholar.

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There's a pretty big difference between having a toolkit in which one's resources are dual-purpose and just having a disgustingly large amount of free time on one's hands. XIV healers generally have the latter.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Thing is, if Necromancer was delivered as a straight DPS class with high utility, we're looking at what is effectively Summoner Redux -- which I would imagine is quite the pill to swallow in itself given the polarized views on the Egi/Demi-Primal system.

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I've not suggested it be a straight DPS job, utility-heavy or otherwise, but if it were and such were an issue, then how the heck are we okay with Red Mage? Or, for that matter, Ninja or Dragoon. Though melee, they're just as utility-heavy. And if that capacity -- utterly regardless of style, playflow, aesthetic, theme, vibe, or feel -- is all that a differentiates a class... we're already screwed. You can absolutely use mechanics and resources to effect great enough that Summoner and this Necromancer would feel distinct. Just as Summoner didn't have to about DoTs, neither must Necromancer feel much of anything like Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's a pretty big difference between having a toolkit in which one's resources are dual-purpose and just having a disgustingly large amount of free time on one's hands. XIV healers generally have the latter.

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True, but Stormblood in particular has put additional emphasis on expanding the healer's combat rotation -- Assize and Aero III, Earthly Star and Lord of Crowns, Chain Stratagem.
Even with just a lot of "free time", encounters are typically designed with the expectation that every job will be putting damage in.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've not suggested it be a straight DPS job, utility-heavy or otherwise, but if it were and such were an issue, then how the heck are we okay with Red Mage? Or, for that matter, Ninja or Dragoon. Though melee, they're just as utility-heavy. And if that capacity -- utterly regardless of style, playflow, aesthetic, theme, vibe, or feel -- is all that a differentiates a class... we're already screwed. You can absolutely use mechanics and resources to effect great enough that Summoner and this Necromancer would feel distinct. Just as Summoner didn't have to about DoTs, neither must Necromancer feel much of anything like Summoner.

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True, but true hybridization is unlikely to occur within XIV, particularly with each role being divvied out into "main" and "off" job variants. Realistically our options are between the DoM options: pure caster, and damage-healer.

Each of the jobs you were discussing primarily have more opportunities for unique damage effects than unique utilities (at least in the case of RDM, whose entire shtick is copying two other jobs, one of whom is a healer). Yet given that many applications of necromancy have to do with exactly the same "life-death balance" you were discussing, we're talking about Necromancer as a job that either would have more opportunities for utility than damage (without just spamming multiple summon skills), or would be seriously missing out on opportunities if it tried to emphasize damage.

Personally, I have always associated Necromancy as DPS and seeing some responses I'm not the only one.

I do think one theme that could be considered is a vampire job. blood magic that focuses around draining spells. It could be a job that deals damage to heal like many people want. Heck, even make it melee if you want to go that route as well. It would be similar to necromancer without the roots that it already has as a damage dealer.

tldr I think vampire would be better than necromancer for a dark healer theme without changing its core.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

Personally, I have always associated Necromancy as DPS and seeing some responses I'm not the only one.

I do think one theme that could be considered is a vampire job. blood magic that focuses around draining spells. It could be a job that deals damage to heal like many people want. Heck, even make it melee if you want to go that route as well. It would be similar to necromancer without the roots that it already has as a damage dealer.

tldr I think vampire would be better than necromancer for a dark healer theme without changing its core.

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Perhaps! But Vampire isn't really a class/job, and Necromancy would encompass the ability to turn/create a vampire.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

True, but Stormblood in particular has put additional emphasis on expanding the healer's combat rotation -- Assize and Aero III, Earthly Star and Lord of Crowns, Chain Stratagem.
Even with just a lot of "free time", encounters are typically designed with the expectation that every job will be putting damage in.

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And I'd prefer, honestly, that they take that even further. I'd much, much rather play a "Support" -- where healing is a large and vital part of that, but still just one such part among multiple aspects -- than a "Healer", who interacts only with health bars rather than every possible way available to interact with party composition, player mentalities (your "DPS Chads" and so forth), and the fight itself. But at present, and I dare wager in the future as well, those skills are more... incidental than thematic, a way to fill time rather than acting as an integral piece of each job's kit.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

True, but true hybridization is unlikely to occur within XIV, particularly with each role being divvied out into "main" and "off" job variants. Realistically our options are between the DoM options: pure caster, and damage-healer.

Each of the jobs you were discussing primarily have more opportunities for unique damage effects than unique utilities (at least in the case of RDM, whose entire shtick is copying two other jobs, one of whom is a healer). Yet given that many applications of necromancy have to do with exactly the same "life-death balance" you were discussing, we're talking about Necromancer as a job that either would have more opportunities for utility than damage (without just spamming multiple summon skills), or would be seriously missing out on opportunities if it tried to emphasize damage.

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Again, I'm not saying it oughtn't be a healer if forced into one role or another in injecting it into the current, highly limiting version of a FF MMO. I just think it'd feel about as much a compelling version of "Necromancer" as our current BLU feels like a compelling version of BLU -- i.e. not at all -- albeit for very different reasons. And so, if I had such a job idea, I'd rather sit on it while promoting whatever changes necessary among other jobs to ready the way for a full and compelling version of my own job concept. It feels like we already have a half-baked version of Red Mage, Summoner, Blue Mage, Conjurer, and to lesser extent perhaps even Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian. With Shadowbringers, we'll likely be adding Gunbreaker and Dancer to that list of jobs with "at best half their thematic potential visible in game". I see no reason to rush another into the woodchipper.

Come to think of it, though, transitioning from "Healer" to "Support" might well be the saving grace for many a healer concept tossed about the forums, be it Medic, Arbiter, Mystic/Oracle, or whatever else. If there was less of an expectation of every job having to fill the exact same healing quotas, but instead just provide similar overall and in-practice impact on its party... there's a ton more we could make use of. And at that point, Necromancer would seem a pretty good fit. Hmm.