(Savage) People give up way too easily...

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

I think they should do something in practice parties to lock the phases out if you haven’t got through each one, it could make progression easier and less annoying :)

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If think people that enters practice party can leave only after timer expired or group disbanded, or else get same penalty as abandon duties. It will be more productive, and who enters a practice group more motivated to learn (or help, if already know the fight).

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Personally I don’t put any trust on the labels (Duty Complete, loot, etc) because Party Finder is a lottery.

My rule is if the group messes up the same mechanic 3 times in a Duty Complete or Farm, I go. If it’s a practice party it’s kinda frustrating when people leave instantly but it is what it is. :P

I think they should do something in practice parties to lock the phases out if you haven’t got through each one, it could make progression easier and less annoying :)

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I don't like the last part, namely since I've been in practice parties that struggled on 1 mechanic, but cleared the fight right after it. Would make it feel less like a boss fight if it was locked to one phase, and also stifle potential learning on later phases during that particular lockout + pull.

And breaking a PF down into multiple individual phases wouldn't help people who might need to actively learn a later phase, but could use the time on earlier phases to polish their own performance up without staying overly long in groups that have 0 percent chance to progress past 1 mechanic of the fight just to polish up, losing out on the potential to learn later phases while polishing up the earlier ones.

It'd also hurt the flow of the boss from 1 phase to the next, since you wouldn't have to learn how to properly or best pre-position a boss prior to a phase transition, or learn how to properly mitigate/heal a phase transition, etc...

If I was trying to learn a phase that a group advertised they were at, but clearly were not after a enough pulls, it's fine to bail on that. The party is no longer what it said it was (like groups perpetually stuck on Level Checker in O11s, but were said to be learning Panto 2, or HW2 groups that wipe 10+ times to M+F mechanics).

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This right here.

This is why people will wait 30 minutes for a party to fill, then instantly leave after 1 wipe.

No one is playing FFXIV. they are all playing Fflogs.

"but parsing isnt toxic."

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what if we told you...that maximizing uptime and doing tons of damage is what people find fun and satisfying?

I don't even have great parses but I find "uptime strats" to be exceptionally more fun to pull off (and so does my static). It's the whole point of a DPS job, so why not.

Hellluuuu been a while

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Originally Posted by Gula

Not even Savage, that's just this playerbase.

"WIPE AND KICK" because they want to be carried. Day 1, people crying like babies because they can't complete a trial and error type of trial in 1 go and run away without learning from a mistake.

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Wipe and kick? We do that too if we have someone that messes up everything and causes a wipe with it more than once. But the reason is not that we want to get carried, the reason is that we don't want to carry people that don't even know the fight despite having a kill. Also there are enough people that are simply tired of carrying people through everything which is completly understandable.

Daniolaut ah hating against parsers again when they aren't even the topic? Of course people will leave after 1 try if they see that 1 or more people don't know any of the mechanics. That has nothing to do with parsers it has something to do with them not wanting to waste their time since they just want their weekly loot. Numbers runs in pugs are bullshit if this group isn't extra build for it and even then its probably still bullshit. Also yes japanese players may take the time to explain but thats probably because other japanese players are also listening. If you try to explain on NA or EU people will simply ignore you or get sassy because you don't pay their sub. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ilan

If you try to explain on NA or EU people will simply ignore you or get sassy because you don't pay their sub. :rolleyes:

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It's even more difficult in EU given the fact we have at least 3 prominent languages, which makes communication even more difficult than it has to be. The amount of times I've been in a PUG and one person seems to completely ignore everything and fail everything, I look at language and oh look, they're -insert whatever language-, no wonder.

So it's no surprise to see, EU in particular, very short tempers and lack of patience when it's such a frequent occurrence.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

It's even more difficult in EU given the fact we have at least 3 prominent languages, which makes communication even more difficult than it has to be. The amount of times I've been in a PUG and one person seems to completely ignore everything and fail everything, I look at language and oh look, they're -insert whatever language-, no wonder.

So it's no surprise to see, EU in particular, very short tempers and lack of patience when it's such a frequent occurrence.

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Well yeah that comes on top of it but even if you are lucky and all are able to speak and understand english you'll often have these "you don't pay my sub" people.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This right here.

This is why people will wait 30 minutes for a party to fill, then instantly leave after 1 wipe.

No one is playing FFXIV. they are all playing Fflogs.

"but parsing isnt toxic."

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Uptime on the boss is massively important.

It's a shame a lot of players don't understand this. Nothing in the games shows you how much it helps. You've beaten everything on Normal, you've beaten SSS, you assume you're good.

Even on EX Primals it's so important. I see melee players running miles to the edge with aoe markers or just standing and waiting at the side when the tank gets targeted for something. Technically they're doing mechanics right and being safe, but over the fight they've lost 30% of their damage and they just don't realize it. On higher content where the whole fight is literally on a timer, this is so important. That lost damage hurts the group.

FFlogs isn't about waving numbers around and competing. No one joins a pug group to aim for top parses. You do that in a static with an optimal set up when you're bored. It exists for self improvement, to analyze every detail of your run and see where you can improve and become a better player to contribute to your groups. Players simply enjoy that playstyle of aiming to improve.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

what if we told you...that maximizing uptime and doing tons of damage is what people find fun and satisfying?

I don't even have great parses but I find "uptime strats" to be exceptionally more fun to pull off (and so does my static). It's the whole point of a DPS job, so why not.

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I find it more fun to clear consistently but thats me.

I'm well aware more people enjoy trying to get higher parses.

I mean, I literally said that in my post.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Wipe and kick? We do that too if we have someone that messes up everything and causes a wipe with it more than once. But the reason is not that we want to get carried, the reason is that we don't want to carry people that don't even know the fight despite having a kill. Also there are enough people that are simply tired of carrying people through everything which is completly understandable.

Daniolaut ah hating against parsers again when they aren't even the topic? Of course people will leave after 1 try if they see that 1 or more people don't know any of the mechanics. That has nothing to do with parsers it has something to do with them not wanting to waste their time since they just want their weekly loot. Numbers runs in pugs are bullshit if this group isn't extra build for it and even then its probably still bullshit. Also yes japanese players may take the time to explain but thats probably because other japanese players are also listening. If you try to explain on NA or EU people will simply ignore you or get sassy because you don't pay their sub. :rolleyes:

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The topic is people giving up too easily.

The reason, is their focus isnt clearing, farming, or anything. Its parsing. I will point out the root of the issue instead of dancing around it.

Here I will post more about the topic. The forums and people who dont pug or however you come to a completely false conclusion about parsing and the NA/EU community can continue to pretend all you want, but again facts dont lie.

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Region..Active players......O8S mount.....Active with O8S mount
JP.........22565....................29804......13.21%
EU.......120046...................3597........3.00%
NA.......276611...................7107........2.57%

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...d_the_raiding/

NA/EU likes numbers, but they are ok with these numbers, so long as their personal parses are high.

I'm not ok with it, and would like to see this number improve. I know I am among the minority, but I'm not going to stay quite just cause you want me to.

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Theory 3: Focus on compositions/logs.
It's been said many times that any (standard) composition can clear any fight in the game. Despite this, many Party Finder parties will insist on a composition that somewhat resembles the meta, even if they're not doing log runs. Duplicate jobs are often excluded, which I partially understand due to the reduced Limit Break generation, but not even allowing two casters in a practice party is #####. On the other side of the coin, Bards and Machinists often won't join a party unless it has a Dragoon in it.

As for logs, I can't tell people not to care about them. If someone enjoys optimising a fight to the nth degree with their static, that's their right. I would like logs to have less influence on the game, however. As a healer main, I get tired of having to adjust to people failing mechanics due to being greedy with DPS. I also think it's a shame that nobody ever wants to use the limit break because it hurts their numbers. As someone who picked up XIV after playing other Final Fantasy games extensively, I feel like people should be fighting over who gets to use it, but instead, someone usually ends up being assigned the "LB #####” which tells you everything you need to know about players' attitudes towards it.

For me, logs are a tool I can use to improve and gauge my progress, but getting to a certain colour or percentile is not an end-goal in itself for me. I've heard that a lot more people care about them in EU/NA than in JP, but I have no evidence of that. At the very least, it's worth remembering that there are a million variables that go into any given pull of any given boss, and boiling them all down to one number is not a reliable way to gauge someone's ability. Every time someone's DPS gets criticised publicly, I wonder how many people are put off even trying to raid for fear of getting judged.

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I raid on Gaia, exclusively in PUGs. Am Japanese person, as well.

For PUGs in JP, the number one priority is clearing the fight, as consistently as possible. No one cares about parses or personal DPS or clear time as long as mechanics are done correctly and enrage is met, no matter how far into a raid tier we are, no matter how good everyone's gear is. No one locks certain jobs out of PF, no one says anything about meta comp. A safe, consistent strat gradually becomes mainstream and everyone follows it, a strat that is as braindead as possible. No one does out-of-the-box strats to increase uptime or get faster clears. No one pulls a "I want to try this, so I'm half-forcing you to do this to adjust" kind of thing. I can expect to go into a random weekly clear party and do the exact same thing that I did the previous week, or any other week. If you want to optimize your play or go for logs, you join a static.

Now, there are demerits to this as well. Because for many (not all) people who PUG exclusively, clearing the fight is the end-goal, so once they have the mechanics of the fight down and can consistently do them, they cut back on putting effort into actively improving their numbers. I've had runs where half the party parsed Grey. Just this week, my O7S weekly was killed during enrage cast. Do I call people out? Does anyone call anyone out? Not at all, as long as the fight is cleared with no major hiccups.

In NA/EU, if you couldn't skip Soar you were kicked (or so I've heard). In JP, everyone knew how to do Soar correctly, and skipping it was a bonus if you were lucky.

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I've heard the NA community laugh about people trying to pug certain fights, where in Japan, pugging, even using raid finder (the duty finder version of raids the NA community never uses) is used quite regularly, happens all the time.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Uptime on the boss is massively important.

It's a shame a lot of players don't understand this. Nothing in the games shows you how much it helps. You've beaten everything on Normal, you've beaten SSS, you assume you're good.

Even on EX Primals it's so important. I see melee players running miles to the edge with aoe markers or just standing and waiting at the side when the tank gets targeted for something. Technically they're doing mechanics right and being safe, but over the fight they've lost 30% of their damage and they just don't realize it. On higher content where the whole fight is literally on a timer, this is so important. That lost damage hurts the group.

FFlogs isn't about waving numbers around and competing. No one joins a pug group to aim for top parses. You do that in a static with an optimal set up when you're bored. It exists for self improvement, to analyze every detail of your run and see where you can improve and become a better player to contribute to your groups. Players simply enjoy that playstyle of aiming to improve.

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Actually any dps more than the amount needed to clear is unnecessary.

Its just as unnecessary as having more vitality/hp more than needed to survive an attack when properly mitigated.

NA/EU just stresses much much much more on the former.

Oh, and I forgot to add, yes people do join pugs to parse. There literally are "log runs" or "parse runs" in party finder all the time. People will even join a pug farm party, clear once with 0 wipes, and instantly leave after 1 clear because they got a better parse. It happens all the time. All the time.






I

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

If you're not concerned with how well you're doing and how much you need to improve in order to clear a Savage class fight, not to mention that you refuse to acknowledge that FFlogs is meant to help you clear the fight specifically because it can analyze and pick things up for players that would otherwise go untouched....then you have no business going into Savage.

They are the second hardest fights in XIV with Ultimate being relatively higher in terms of stress and its demand on personal skill level. No one going into a Savage party simply wants to skate by doing the bare minimum only, they want to do Savage so that they can feel good about themselves and for putting forth tons of effort, proving to themselves that they have the focus and general knowledge of their class to do something much harder than standing around Limsa for several hours dancing.

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And this is how I see the community act all the time. I really don’t get it.

I have never met a player who didn’t want to improve that wasn’t trolling. Everyone wants to improve.

You immediately jump to me not being welcome in savage, even though all I’m trying to do is have a discussion to improve the clear rates of the player base as a whole. Honestly everyone should want that because it helps static’s and pug parties fill and be filled with competent players.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

In addition to this, it was also a completely asinine comment because it can be applied to any role. You don't need any more mitigation than that which avoids you getting one shot. You don't need any more healing than that which keeps you at at least 1 health. While all of them are, obviously, true... they are true at that same time as being completely ridiculous things to count on.

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I find it interesting that you say this is asinine, when saying “anymore VIT than x amount is worthless” and that’s accepted and praised.

I only said that because I am full aware of the playerbases mentality on vitality.

Again. Everyone wants to improve and do well.

Did you ever consider the reason some people buy clears because they know no one will help them? I watched party finders go from “help me clear” to “I will pay to get helped” to “selling all clears.”

To further this. Did you know the JP servers stand in lines for issues like Rahuban Extreme? The NA community used to too, back in ARR days. But not anymore. No, they shouldn’t have to, SE should address the issue, but now they are with the data center changes.

Point is, the focus has changed and I am trying to point that out, and instead of having a discussion, you’re all getting angry and saying me and others with my mentality should be blacklisted. It’s not the first time. Which is why I’m not going to discuss this further.

No one likes being ridiculed for having a difference of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

out of all the things, I'm just going to comment on this one. This is only true in a perfect vacuum of a fight with 0 deaths, 0 fat fingers, and 0 goofs. in my experience with my uptime -focused static, the extra DPS gave us a buffer to save us from failing if say, a DPS goofed and died. Well, the combined tank/healing dps made up for it and we didnt hit enrage. This in turn gave us more consistent clears overall because enrage was never an issue and we could clear with multiple deaths. But I knot this is just 1 static's experience and not farm parties/PUGs, I dont go into PF with the same mindset as I do my static.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

And now imagine what would happen if this blacklist would be adapted in EU and NA. This Forum would be full of people who would scream and stomp on the ground because they've got blacklistet when they refused to listen to advice and just expected others to carry them.

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This mentality is not what happens in Japan. Read my above statements. They stand in line and wait for clogged duties and help players and work as a team. The NA community used to as wel. I’m only asking that we at least attempt to work together but instead these are the responses being provided.
“You shouldn’t be doing savage.”

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Uptime on the boss is massively important.

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That's way too broad a statement by itself. Sometimes yes you are working against a tight enrage or trying to push a mechanic and you need all the DPS you can get, but also sometimes the DPS check is pretty lenient and you're not going to hit any extra mechanics that are likely to cause a wipe, so you can drop shedloads of GCDs without it being an issue.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

FFlogs isn't about waving numbers around and competing. No one joins a pug group to aim for top parses. You do that in a static with an optimal set up when you're bored. It exists for self improvement, to analyze every detail of your run and see where you can improve and become a better player to contribute to your groups. Players simply enjoy that playstyle of aiming to improve.

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I understand that mentality, but I would say the place to do that is not in a PF farm group, where the objective is to maximise loot gained per time spent. If you make an uptime play that gets the boss killed a few seconds faster, but also increases the chance of a wipe (and remember it's a pug, so the rest of the group may well not be ready for it or react in a way you're expecting) then it's probably a net loss of time, not to mention the extra frustration created by wiping in a farm group.