Tanks and super pulls

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Originally Posted by KouenElfrit

It's either that the tank knows how much they can pull and expect dps the aoe the pack down at a reasonable rate, the aoe is abysmal and the pack lived for too long and is straining the tank cd's and healer mana, or the tank pulls too much.
Personally I don't expect a lot when it comes to randoms in roulette, but I usually run with a 4 man that pulls mobs appropriately and everyone is AoEing mobs well enough.

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There's the real answer. There is no way for a healer to know what the group is capable of. Tanks can ask, but the answer will ultimately mean nothing. If the tank doesn't use CD's then he or she may die. If the group can't ae the extra mobs down fast enough, people may die. It really has less to do with the healer than everyone else. In the end, if it makes you angry to die in pug's, then don't do them. Just get a good, reliable group together and run content how you want it.

As a healer I find it annoying when tanks try and speed run everything and start trying to show how many mobs they can handle and then inevitably die because they take far too much damage and blame me for not healing fast enough. :P

even though the group is good enough to handle big pulls, i still prefer to pull 1 pack at a time as a tank. if people think it's too slow, too bad. play a tank and set the pace yourself.

I play both tank and healer, also got my SAM at 70 so know somewhat the dps role is going to be. As a preference I do prefer normal 1 group pull over multiple, both from tank and healer's point of view considering how little difference it makes in the end (about 2, maybe 3 minuites on super pulling). People usually say that if the tank and healers are capable, the super pull is possible. What people forget is that tank and healer alone does not decide the kill rate, thats where the dps kicks in. So to make the speed run a success every role must fulfill their job.

Problem is that in Pugs there is no telling if everyone is capable or not, only on pre-mades. As a tank, I try to do a single pull on the very first group to see whats our dps is like. I pretty much know what my tank can handle. As a healer I know that I can forget about DPS when the tank does a massive pull, of course it also depends if the tank selfheals or uses their cooldowns properly. As a dps, it depends on which instance. I know my SAM can dish out a good amount of aoe dps, but it comes no where near my single target dps. Which also comes to the next question of, are the DPS hitting the same target. If things die slow, the tank is constantly getting hit by the other mobs that are still alive, has to use more cooldowns which can lead to less or 0 cooldown on the next pack. Just because you DPS/TANK/HEALER think you can handle, does not mean others can. Putting those others who can't fulfill your desire does not mean they are bad. If you want guaranteed speedrun, make a party finder or do it among people you know. Otherwise give indication or suggestion before starting the instance instead of silently pulling more packs. If you can type insults, you can type "lets try more packs see how it goes". Or... well adapt with your current group? If you are forcing others to adapt you, why can't you do the same.

TLDR: Speed runs needs to meet quite a lot of conditions to be successful and even if you can pull it off, the outcome is minimal at best.
OT: There are some people who forces to speed run, yet at some point they stand still doing nothing. Probably sending a chat or something. Well thanks, you have just made our last 2-3 pulls useless.

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Originally Posted by tyrantdragon

[as if it's the]...the healers fault if Super Tank dies because the Healer can't keep up because the tank did not take proper precautions to see if the healer is properly geared or could even handle it

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But... max pulls have been possible since 4-mans of just AF (i290 and less) gear...

Fault there won't lie with the healer alone. It includes the tank, ofc, but it also includes the DPS. CDs only last so long. Which is why safety does not lie in heal spamming, but rather in full use of one's toolkit; AoEing when you still can because once the CDs are down, it's not going to be sustainable regardless.

I say this as a tank, a healer, and a DPS. My healer is the least geared, but since hitting level 70 in AF, megapulls have not been an issue as long as the DPS are decent and the tank at least banks a CD or two for the pull.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Also a thing I notice about big pulls is a lot of times either I myself or DPS end up getting hit with AoEs, becuase you can't freaking SEE the markers on the ground with all the animations, mobs, etc going on.

Yeah Yeah I know you're in a hurry blah blah, but haste makes waste. I'd rather take a few extra minutes per dungeon to do it the safe way than to blow 5 minutes on a wipe and run back.

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Limit your party animations displayed.

The thing is it's not just 3 minutes saved on that run. It's also nearly that on the next and the one after that and so on; every party those who've gotten used to optimizing pulls in this group join who are likewise capable will see the benefits. Play it safe, rather than learning how to do these pulls, and the community largely stagnates, while the remainder who are more ambitious or far-sighted fracture off and become less willing to join random groups.

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Originally Posted by Odeon

There was this one time, though, where our Healer was obviously over-geared and wanted me to pull more, until he eventually started pulling mobs himself.

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Although the healer reacted in a crappy way I can understand their frustration. It annoys me when people pull 2-3 mobs I can heal them very easily and dps very easily. But I know I could pump out way more damage had the pulls been bigger and still handled the cures.

Also I like to see Gravity go off it looks awesome :P

As a healer I personally prefer the big pulls because it's very fun to me. I love challenging myself, even if people see it as "poor healer being stressed out", not all healers' preference are the same.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I don't mind when a competent tank does it.

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This is the biggest problem really. Many tanks do not know how to use their cds properly and many don't use any at all. I see loads of tanks chain pulling out of tank stance and it's sometimes a nightmare to heal. If they do that and use no cds...yea you can guess.

The cherry on top is when the dps do nothing but spam aoe, so all the mobs' hp trickles down at the same rate which means the damage the tank takes doesn't lessen as the fight continues...and if it lasts long that can easily lead to a healer going out of mana.

I love healing but whenever anyone tells me they don't do it because it can be too stressful, I don't blame them.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Another thing Ive noticed is this from dps, that can mess up a pull tank pulls the adds to go round them up wit the other adds and the next thing you know because the dps just had to get its melee on they are one on one fighting the add because they just couldnt help but touch before you rounded them all up.

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Someone needs to start a new tank pulling thread about THIS. Idiot goddamn DPS. lol

As a Tank I understand this is a problem for some groups which is why I urge tanks to evaluate your party on the first couple of pull before deciding to make bigger pulls. I usually test to see if the dps are doing high damage and decent aoe for larger group to kill them quickly as well as noticing if the healer is skilled enough to handle it. Managing CDs is and important part of making "super pulls" and if you are in a situation you won't have any CDs then you should never rely on your healer to just keep you alive and just make the smaller pull until they are back up. As a tank you want to make sure the pace of the dungeon is appropriate for your group. Just don't assume all groups are the same and you can always just "super pull" because you have done it before successfully. Also when in doubt just ask because some healers enjoy the challenge of healing big pulls.