4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Lets take Susy Ex for example - The puddles it casts. Melee has to move the radius of the puddle to get out of it and then the radius to get back in to do damage. Caster only has to move the radius to get out and can continue to damage.

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If you stack properly, you can dodge puddles and still attack the boss from left or right. Melee can do damage while moving as well so you dont lose any damage dodging mechanics around bosses. If blm have to stop casting for dodging mechanics, it is more dps loss than that melee have to hit one positional from the wrong side. Now we even have true north for mechanics where you can not hit positionals.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

The distinction between a caster, a melee physical dps and a ranged physical dps should be inconsequential for balancing.
You look at what a job brings- utility (defensive and offensive) and personal dps, and weight those out.
A ranged and melee job with the same utility should have the same dps in a raid setting (use statistical metrics to verify this).
A caster and melee with similar utility would also follow suit there.

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What?? Are we just going to ignore that casters are punished less by mechanics than melee and ranged physical even less than that?
People liked this post, I am confused.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

What?? Are we just going to ignore that casters are punished less by mechanics than melee and ranged physical even less than that?
People liked this post, I am confused.

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I say we are punished more because AOEs seem to target us more while melee generally aren't targeted from my observations. It seems next to the boss is generally the safest spot other then the occasional little aoe he tosses around him.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If you stack properly, you can dodge puddles and still attack the boss from left or right. Melee can do damage while moving as well so you dont lose any damage dodging mechanics around bosses. If blm have to stop casting for dodging mechanics, it is more dps loss than that melee have to hit one positional from the wrong side. Now we even have true north for mechanics where you can not hit positionals.

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Oh wow, some of you are seriously going to argue that casters have equal uptime to melee. Yes, it is true that if you do this mechanic in a certain way with the entire raid co-operating you can make it so that melee have equal uptime with casters. That doesnt invalidate the main point. It is generally true that casters are less punished by mechanics than melee, hence the reason for them generally having higher damage.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

What?? Are we just going to ignore that casters are punished less by mechanics than melee and ranged physical even less than that?
People liked this post, I am confused.

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You've never played a caster in your life, I'm assuming.
Melees have gapclosers to get back onto the boss quickly.
Or, for your puddle case, check this out.
The melee more or less stack on the back and one of the flanks (left or right). The puddles spawn and then you strafe to the other flank. While staying within range to keep hitting the boss.
Like all good melees do. If you didn't do this, feel free to apply it and enjoy your 98%+ dps uptime.
Do you know who does not have that option and does 0 dps while moving?
That's right. It's Black Mage.

Now I want you all to go play BLM on Susano EX and then come here, with a straight face, and convince me a NIN or a MNK are "more punished by mechanics".

Or, you know what?
Open fflogs and check the 90% percentile and check dps uptime. And then tell me who comes dead last.
I can't believe I have to type this out.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I say we are punished more because AOEs seem to target us more while melee generally aren't targeted from my observations. It seems next to the boss is generally the safest spot other then the occasional little aoe he tosses around him.

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So MNK had been unfairly out dpsing BLM for like all of 2.0/3.0?

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I say we are punished more because AOEs seem to target us more while melee generally aren't targeted from my observations. It seems next to the boss is generally the safest spot other then the occasional little aoe he tosses around him.

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Well that fucking tactical nuke sized aoe that exdeath uses with Void thunder iii is a bit of a ball ache. On the other hand the keep moving Void ice iii mechanic gets the goats of casters so it can go either way. Playing melee DPS is indeed more precarious because you MUST be in range to do damage. For quite a lot of bosses this is indeed the safest position but the fact that you must share this are with a few others which means in situation like lakshimi, having a lot of melee can cause issues if everyone wants to do damage during the first cross pattern (I just pop a vril and pray that I'm not 2nd in agro when the prey comes out). She also has the pull in bubble which you SHOULD be avoiding (there is a trick to avoiding this: if you stand on the bleeding left by the expanded healer pools while still in the black bubble, both bleeding effects wont stack so when the blue pools dissipate, you will still be inside the black bubble but you wont gain the bleed from it. Alternatively, you can just eat the dot damage since dps don't take any damage for a good 30 seconds afterwards). Don't even get me started on that fucking add phase.

I can see the rationale behind it but in general being melee is generally safe. However anything that requires movement away from the boss means we cannot even think of hitting the boss (A10s, the boss has stoneskin though so it would only be useful for keeping resources) means that you lose damage while in most cases when a caster has to move they have to move once and can set up camp where they are (this doesn't help if this occurs frequently, however). You can see that melee dps have far higher uptime than casters, well BLM, so really I think BLM should be about 100 DPS ahead of SAM. They don't have foes anymore, or any magical only buffs (apart from that smn thing) so it would make sense. Casters were dominant in alex for the most part though so maybe the dev team though this is like recompense or something dumb like that, idk but that's the only justification I could possibly think of for making embolden and brotherhood physical only.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

So MNK had been unfairly out dpsing BLM for like all of 2.0/3.0?

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I would say so.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

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I'm so irrationally annoyed right now.
Breathe deep, Galveira, breathe deep.

2.X BLM has nothing to do with 3.X BLM. It was much more mobile, much less punished and much easier to execute than 3.X BLM. Not even in the same ballpark.
I can play 2.X BLM with one hand. For 3.X I need both of my hands and my brain.

You can make that point for 3.X.
You see, fight design used to sorta require casters. Think A7S caster jails.
The problem came when that was no longer the case. Then physical dps stacking was king... and utility also, so MNK was also left out. But if that wasn't the case, yes, MNK would trump BLM every time unless you had a dedicated cheese comp (who even does that though eeew).
You know. Kinda like what's happening right now with SAM. Care to explain to me why playing SAM is so much harder in a raid than BLM, or how being melee is much more punishing and they should outdps us by like 10% like the do right now?
Or tell me who would take a BLM over a SAM for no reason other than personal preference when SAM is better in every possible metric if you have a RDM in your party? (Which you probably will, they're actually omnipresent)

Any top-tier comp has at least two melee physical dps, and you're arguing against casters with BLM and especially SMN in such a poor state. Well alright then.

EDIT: and let me add how utterly and absolutely frustrating it is to have an uncooperative party as BLM. You don't know pain until you've had people be near you to drop puddles in your Ley Lines when you weren't tagged, or turning the knockback thing at an awkward angle for no reason at all and forcing you to move, or the OT taking like 30% of the arena with Lak's blue marker thing and forcing you to move, or that BRD over there which also has a hand of grace like you but is absolutely not gonna move even if there's 0 opportunity cost for him and hey, now I can't stand on my Ley Lines again, or someone that didn't Vril Divine Doubt and now his 8 extra seconds of confusion are your 8 extra seconds of not-casting because he's clubbing you in the face and his aas interrupt your casts- do I need to go on?
I'll adjust to all this nonsense and perform my job to the best of my ability, but God, does it rub me the wrong way when you assume that these worries and frustrations of mine pale compared to the horror of melee dps that can't stack for puddles (just go near the tank, he doesn't cleave when he's doing the puddles).

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I would say so.

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But they haven't really though have they? 2.0 BLM was far more simple, it had very little room for failure within the rotation. 3.0 BLM was a monster. Coupled with Foes, Casters were pretty much the top dps throughout the entirety of alex. Check the logs if you don't believe me. Even with the anti caster meta of 3.4+, casters were still at the top even if FFLogs if full of padding. Casters have always been powerful especially due to how potent foe's was.