Why, Alisaie?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I think you should give this a read http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest.../#sidestory_07 her story moved away from her grandfather a long time ago.

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I gave that ridiculously trite story way more reads than it deserved - it reads like bad fanfiction, to me. One thing to note is that in the very first scene with Emery, Alisaie's still quoting Louisoix's "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." line. Hell, she's still quoting it in 3.55-3.56 (can't exactly remember if she did in 3.4 but I have a feeling she did). Sure, maybe she does have other motivations for doing whatever she's doing. If so, can we get a clearer explanation on that? Why does it seem like any time she needs a motivation for doing something, the writers default to having her quote Louisoix?

My previous post made it sound as if I was saying Alisaie's a bad character because she doesn't affect the plot, which is not what I meant to say. Rather, a well-written character would affect the story simply because they are a well-written character, not having the story tailored to them the way 3.4 was tailored to Alisaie. I cannot find a single instance where I implied that the poor writing of the plot was the fault of the characters. That is not the case in my opinion: I think that the poor writing is exactly what's causing the characters to be shafted so badly.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

One thing to note is that in the very first scene with Emery, Alisaie's still quoting Louisoix's "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." line. Hell, she's still quoting it in 3.55-3.56 (can't exactly remember if she did in 3.4 but I have a feeling she did).

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Sure, maybe she does have other motivations for doing whatever she's doing. If so, can we get a clearer explanation on that? Why does it seem like any time she needs a motivation for doing something, the writers default to having her quote Louisoix?

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I can't be sure if she did quote that line during her re-introductory story, but yes, she did quote it in 3.56 and personally, nothing is wrong with that. More than half of the casts like to quote Louisoix, with Urianger obviously the best example.

There is nothing wrong with quoting someone that is considered a national hero by all of Eorzea, less so if they have personal interaction with said hero. Louisoix was the driving force of the Circle movement, and the man behind the Scions founding. He's the reason for the twins coming to Eorzea. Louisoix was, and still is the reason why the Scions do what they do, some may even say he was their motive initially. Even so, each has found their own reason and motive to fight, not because Louisoix told them to, but because they, in each of their way, has come to believe in what Louisoix believed in. That newfound reason doesn't make them arrogant to cast Louisoix aside; if not for Louisoix in the first place, they may not come to this realization. So they honor him, quoting him time and again, not simply because they follow his creed but because they believe in his creed.

The poor plot writing is to blame, yes, but it was clear the writers still put much effort to show off the characters in more subtle ways. The characters, barring exceptional few, are absolutely so much well written and thought of while the plot story and the delivery just simply can't keep up.

While I wouldn't call myself a fan of Alisaie, necessarily, I don't think she's been as poorly developed as you imply. That's been gone over plenty already, and better than I could have done. I do want to add, though, that she's only been back in the game for two patches, and only been in the spotlight in one of those (which mostly served to re-establish her as a character). Give it time. She's in the key artwork for Stormblood; with any luck, she'll enjoy a role not unlike Alphinaud in Heavensward.

And while some may question if this team has that kind of storytelling in them still, due to their disappointment with the perceived narrative failings of 3.56, I don't think we have to worry. 3.4 was some of the best tandalone(ish) storytelling this game has ever done and included a great deal of really efficient, effective characterization. I don't think a single patch of stage-setting is enough to take away the benefit of doubt.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

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To be honest, I don't see much difference in how Alisaie is developed to how the other characters are. I am not sure why this bothers you specifically with Alisaie. That said, a good deal of her current development happened in Coils and was about her coming to understand her grandfather's choices. A good deal of her attitude towards the city states prior to that was colored by the fact she was mourning her Grandfather and projecting that at the city states. For her it felt like they were wasting his sacrifice even if that wasn't far. In coils she came to understand that and deal with her grief. She hadn't necessarily found why she wanted to protect Eorzea but she now accepted why her grandfather had and was open to looking on Eorzea with unbiased eyes. As for why she quotes her grandfather, it is because she believes a great deal in his wisdom and teaching and uses it as a basis for how she wants to live.

Beyond that she still has a lot of development to go which I expect we will see in SB. I think its highly likely Alisaie will be along for the ride and hopefully will get development much like Alphinaud did in HW. Its not like we are at the end of the story yet. Yugiri hasn't had much development either but she will be probably getting a great deal in SB. Beyond being a kick ass Ninja and the leader of refugees, we really don't know Yugiri well. She is a very reserved character and has never shown a great deal of emotion. It is one of the things I am looking forward to about Othard.

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Originally Posted by RobinMalvin

So they honor him, quoting him time and again, not simply because they follow his creed but because they believe in his creed.

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I am fully aware and cognizant of the fact that the Scions quote Louisoix plenty of times, and why. There is no need to bring them up when the whole reason why I mentioned Alisaie's quoting of Louisoix had nothing to do with them in the first place. But the Scions do serve as a contrast to Alisaie. The problem I have with Alisaie quoting Louisoix's words, as I said before, is because it seems like she's using Louisoix's teachings as her motivation for doing anything, whether it be helping out Emery in her Tale, or re-joining the Scions. Because I get absolutely no impression from her that anything she does is truly of her own volition, as opposed to being of opinions and ideals that she absorbed from someone she idolised. And that irritates me, because if you want to present a strong character, that's not exactly the way to write them.

The rest of the Scions, in contrast, give me no such impression. I can easily believe that they do what they do, not because "Louisoix said it was the right thing to do", but simply because they want to do it.

I find it hilarious how with Minfilia, we had a diplomatic female character who stayed out of the action because she lacked combat skills. Now, with Alisaie, we have a combat-trained female character who stays out of the action because... she lacks diplomatic skills. Can we ever win?

The reason why the poor handling of Alisaie bothers me so much is: From the new outfit, the minion, and the buildup of the 3.4 story between 3.0 to 3.3, I conclude that SE wants to present Alisaie as a main member of the supporting cast. All well and good, except why does her character development seem so out-of-focus compared to the rest of the Scions? She had an entire patch to shine and yet it just fell flat. Instead of allowing her, as a character, to shape and drive the plot, the plot just forged on ahead, with her tagging along because she's "not the girl I once was". I suppose poisoned arrow wounds come with a side of Instant Character Development(TM).

Compare to, say, Thancred. Throughout 3.1 to 3.3, he had a handful of scenes and interactions, both to the player and the WoL, but in those few scenes, managed to show off just how he'd changed as a character, and provide a solid, simple, and clear explanation for why he'd changed. But try as I may, I cannot find a clear explanation for why Alisaie has suddenly changed from the way she was back in 2.0 (and let's put aside the Coils storyline, because if her Tale is canon, then Coils seems to have affected nothing at all), to joining the Scions in 3.4.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

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Alisae has just as much a reason to quote and idolize her grandfather just like any Scion. Does the fact she quote him many times mean he hold him in high regard? Certainly. Does that mean she simply use his grandfather's teaching as an excuse? Maybe, if we consider Coil storyline non canon and her cutscenes in 3.4 is set aside but as it stands out, the probability of her simply emulating Louisoix is close to zero.

I suggest you rewatch the cutscene of 3.4, Beneath A Star Filled Sky. Just because she quote Louisoix, doesn't mean that's all everything in her head.

3.4 gave her lots of focus, and she's a brand new addition to Scions so it's not anything strange for her to be not the main focus in next plot. Even then, her growing character is obviously still showed without having to put her in the midst of story. She's new character, doesn't mean she has to suddenly affect and control the entire plot.

You judge her character too quick just after one patch of her re-introduction.

P.S

This rant posts have gone too long to be in lore focused forum.

I do have to agree that Alisae's entry in the Tales of the Dragonsong War was deeply disappointing. She starts by declaring her decision to find her OWN way in Eorzea. Then, while her brother is making bold decisions among the Scions (not all good, to be sure, as was evidenced by the Crystal Braves) she wanders aimlessly for a while, joins a caravan, makes a friend, loses the friend in a tragic accident, and... that's it. If it wasn't for Coil, she'd have nothing at all. If you didn't do Coil, she really DOES have nothing at all.

As for her role in 3.4, while she got to shine for a bit I'm still really uncertain what she's going to bring to the table. I haven't written her off as a lost cause, but I'm a little worried that the authors will focus a little to heavily on her to make her relevant, just as they did with her brother in 2.x. On the other hand, Aphinaud DID eventually benefit from that spotlight, since the writers made the interesting choice to show the drawbacks of putting a wunderkind like Aphy in a position of power... but there's no denying that Aphinaud's smug attitude before it all fell apart rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way!

One more slightly annoying trend I've noticed with Alisaie is that the writers keep introducing new characters for her specifically to bond and interact with, while not developing her relationship with the WoL much, if at all. And it's a huge contrast to how Alphinaud's friendship with the WoL is handled.

It's no surprise that I like Alphinaud and how he's grown from being a commander to a partner and friend for the WoL. Their friendship is all in the little gestures now, like the WoL looking straight at him and not even needing to speak for him to get the message in the first cutscene with Nero. That last scene of them walking into the woods in East Shroud together, before the credits, was the best possible note to end 3.56 on. And as for the other characters that Alphinaud's formed relationships with (Estinien, Ysayle, etc), they've all had strong, lasting presences and affected the plot in their own ways with their own interactions.

We'll never meet Emery, since she's dead, barring some more PotD shenanigans. Will Ga Bu be back? In a way that affects the plot strongly? Or was he just the latest in a series of throwaway characters created solely to give Alisaie more character of her own? Right now I don't feel like Alisaie is a friend to the WoL, or at least not to the level that the rest of the Scions are, not just Alphinaud.

I'm honestly still trying to figure out who or what Alisaie actually cares about on a genuine level. Stalking the WoDs seems to have been initially a way to seek validation, for her, not because she was concerned that they might have posed a threat to anyone (rereading the last few paragraphs of "A Malm in Her Shoes" shows absolutely no evidence to the contrary). I cannot recall a single instance of her openly showing concern for Alphinaud, and in contrast, Alisaie being injured or in danger is one of the very few things that can get Alphinaud to lose his cool, both in Coils and 3.4. Sure, she sent the caravan guy in 2.55, but again, offscreen. This is one of the reasons why I say Alphinaud cares more about the living than Alisaie - he went into the Coils to protect her, she went in there chasing Louisoix. It actually feels a bit sad at times, how she seems far less concerned about him than he is with her.

Whatever the case, Stormblood's story and Alisaie's development in it should pretty much be set in stone by now. I can hope to be pleasantly surprised, and I will, but from what I've seen so far, I can only expect to be disappointed.

She's one of my favorite characters in the story, and I hope she gets more face time. I like both of the twins. Alphinaud's the reluctant leader; wanting to unite Eorzea, but is unsure of himself. Alisaie wanted to be more scholarly in her pursuits. Then she reluctantly got pulled into the bigger fight.

I love the character development with both of them. It's two young adults trying to take on the mantle of Louisoix's leadership. With all of their victories and defeats under a microscope.

Funny how you hate her. I on the other hand am liking her more and more. Sure she still needs some development but we kinda have an expansion comming out. Remember Alphinaud grew a lot during 3.0. Back in ARR he was an annoying twerp whom I very much wanted to see dead, but his travels with Estinien and Ysayle changed her for the better. Besides she would gladly do more, but Alphinaud is pretty much trying to make a second Tataru out of her. With 3 Scions down he'll have no choice but to let her sister have a more active role in the story.