Summoner revamp

Yeah, it sounds like the whole damn thing around the summoner from back to front was a train wreak of bad decisions.
While I did enjoy switching between SCH and SMN, it's not worth it if it screws up balance and contributes to the SMN failing to deliver on its role. (I mean actually summoning, not dps)
I think they may be better of splitting the SMN off from Anarchist entirely, and make it a stand alone like Dark Knight.

The thing is, you would go against 6 years worth of lore by summoning full size primals. But an effect where the Egi grows bigger when using it's special move, why not.
But I rather have the dev add skills to the Egis so that you at least have to manage the pet outside of skills like Contagion.

Otherwise, having summons pop doing a big attack and go awat won't work in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by YohSL

Yeah, it sounds like the whole damn thing around the summoner from back to front was a train wreak of bad decisions.
While I did enjoy switching between SCH and SMN, it's not worth it if it screws up balance and contributes to the SMN failing to deliver on its role. (I mean actually summoning, not dps)
I think they may be better of splitting the SMN off from Anarchist entirely, and make it a stand alone like Dark Knight.

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I was thinking the other way around, ACN remains SMN's class what with Carbuncle being it's main lore point and SCH be made a stand alone like Dark Knight with all the dot mage spells taken with it. Then SE can make a new skill set built around commanding Carbuncle/Summons and they don't have to worry about balancing it against SCH. The whole story of ACN and SMN are built around their summons if I remember rightly so removal of the dot spells won't hurt them from a lore standpoint.

They should just really rename summoner to necromancer (or even warlock...), swap egis for skeletons / ghosts / demons (they're already working on egi glamour), and implement summoner as a new job with the focus on the lionshare of the damage coming from full-size pets.

Please remember, that SE needs (idk exactly) around 0,5-1 year, just to implement Egi-glamours.

Any complete overhaul of the SMN-job (including something like 20 unique class GCD/oGCDs + changing the overall concept of the Job + change the battle system completely and also some other Jobs (if elemental weaknesses become a thing again) + lore + separation of SCH + PvP/PvE-balance) would waste such a huge ammount of dev resources....

....just to change a well-balanced class, which is fun to play (from a gameplay PoV), into a class, which might be fun to play (if SE does everything right.. haha) just so that SMN fits better your imagined standard of what a SMN should be.

I don't want to pass on every other possible enhancement coming with an add-on, just to fulfill some convoluted dreams of a (in my eyes) minority of players.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

1. How could a SCH (which has same toolkit as SMN.. but without a pet, which deals about 30% of your dps as extra dps + damage oGCDs) out dps a SMN?
He has literally nothing (except healing) to deal more damage then the SMN, even on 50.

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In 2.0 the only things SMN had over SCH was fester, a damage dealing pet and raging strikes. In sustained AoE situation, E.G dungeon speed runs, A.K.A the majority of content for 2.0, fester wasn't used, the pet's 90 potency auto attack was a drop in the bucket on those huge pulls and raging strikes could only be used once or twice.

The constant 10% damage buff from cleric's stance outweighed all of these things and a SCH rarely had to leave cleric's stance because Eos could handle most of the healing and lustrate still worked at full potency while cleric stance was on. So both their rotations consisted of DoT a mob > bane spam > shadowflare > blizzard 2 until DoTs need to be reapplied.

SMN might have beaten SCH dps on couple of occasions with raging strikes contagion DoTs but over the course of an entire dungeon run the SCH encDPS would be higher due to the extra sustained dps from cleric's stance.

Someone did make a post about the scaling of the summons to be more game friendly for the user and the environment. This was a big issue and I'm sure still is, though I do worry if a summon is too big, that could be an issue.

On the other side, I do like how they feel the summons should remain these powerful entities, and it might knock them down a notch to have smaller versions of them running around.

Though you're right, when I did the quests in 11 I felt more of a connection. I would have liked to see us try to summon Ifrit, Garuda, Ramuh etc..but show how we can be come either tempered or that our aether isn't enough to call them forth. That seems to have been forgotten.

These egis, while I've gotten use to them, could be replaced with lesser summons of their elements. Such as Mateus or Belias (I was sort of annoyed when I saw him...) that require less aether for us to use. There is a lot that could be done but it also takes time, effort, money..and someone high up enough to care and say "Do it"

I guess can only wait to see what 4.0 brings us and where our egi's go from there.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

In 2.0 the only things SMN had over SCH was fester, a damage dealing pet and raging strikes. In sustained AoE situation, E.G dungeon speed runs, A.K.A the majority of content for 2.0, fester wasn't used, the pet's 90 potency auto attack was a drop in the bucket on those huge pulls and raging strikes could only be used once or twice.

The constant 10% damage buff from cleric's stance outweighed all of these things and a SCH rarely had to leave cleric's stance because Eos could handle most of the healing and lustrate still worked at full potency while cleric stance was on. So both their rotations consisted of DoT a mob > bane spam > shadowflare > blizzard 2 until DoTs need to be reapplied.

SMN might have beaten SCH dps on couple of occasions with raging strikes contagion DoTs but over the course of an entire dungeon run the SCH e reapply/bane again as soon as Bio1 runs out). ncDPS would be higher due to the extra sustained dps from cleric's stance.

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Well, then was WHM the best dps of all classes. I didn't know you only meant overgeared (by tank, healer and dps) ez-pz dungeons, where contagion is not used/needed. Well then... maybe.

On a 18s (0:00 @ 3rd GCD = Bio) fight against X enemies a SCH has (both save one AF-stack for later fight):

[X *[(25+40+40+35+10) * 6 + 6*50 B2 + 10 Miasma2 hit)] + 1*150 ED] * 1,1
=
1,1*(X * 1210 + 150)
=
1331*X + 165 pot [@ 5 targets = 6820)


SMN got:
X *(25+40+40+35+10) * 6 + 6*50 B2 + 10 Miasma2 hit + 80 Aeroslash) + 1*300 Fester + 6*90 single target Egi
=
1290*X + 840 pot [@ 5 targets = 7290]


And there's also Spour (1322*X+1056) or Rouse+Spour (1366*X+1358).. oh, and enkindle.

If longer fight (= contagion) the SCH loses even more, since he has to redot, while SMN can do extra B2s.

And of course Fester was used, since you can't use three banes within a minute (unless you reapply DoTs too soon or don't use contagion).


Soooo... i don't believe you. :3

I mean, nothing despite Enkindle-CD was changed (Bane-buff was for both Jobs) for SMN <=50.. so SCH schould still do more dps than any SMN in lvl 50 content or below? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

The thing is, you would go against 6 years worth of lore by summoning full size primals. But an effect where the Egi grows bigger when using it's special move, why not.
But I rather have the dev add skills to the Egis so that you at least have to manage the pet outside of skills like Contagion.

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Well before making Summoner a Job class they should have thought about the consequences of basing the entirety of their narrative around killing summon monsters. And furthermore not just using a popular job name to draw in people to try out and adapt their idea of an affliction mage.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Any complete overhaul of the SMN-job (including something like 20 unique class GCD/oGCDs + changing the overall concept of the Job + change the battle system completely and also some other Jobs (if elemental weaknesses become a thing again) + lore + separation of SCH + PvP/PvE-balance) would waste such a huge ammount of dev resources....

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They are already wasting dev resources just trying to keep SMN and SCH from tipping each other over the edge and thats a constant endeavour. They have limited themselves in the ways they can balance these two jobs due to them being tied at the hip. ACN/SMN/SCH was a failed experiment as admitted by SE themselves.

On the Egis i would say they are fine as they are appearance wise though i wouldn't complain about upping their size a bit, they were originally even smaller. But they should not be SMN's equivalent of MCH's turret; plonk it down and forget about it. The Summons are one of the most if not the most iconic parts of Final Fantasy and they should be treated with more respect.