Buffing VIT Nerfing STR - Some simple math...

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

I don't blame your skepticism... but this statement.... the majority of players are needing tank dps to clear a3s/a4s and this would really squelch raid progress for a while. Plus I am presently subscribing to the conspiracy theory that SE is doing as much as they can to bring players to the tanking side, and this would likely cause a bit of an exodus, leading to longer dungeon queues. blah blah, snowball effect.

Again, not an impossible scenario.

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I'm sure plenty of fellow STR tanks will be butthurt by this and clearly from the state of the forums and reddit, they already are. The DPS of tanks in this game was icing on the cake for me, not the cake itself, so its no skin off my back.

I do think that it is wholly illogical to assume that if tank DPS is getting nerfed, combined with SE already coming out and explicitly stating that DPS checks and burdens placed on specific roles are getting eased up on, that we will struggle in A5-9S. If A1-4S has taught us anything its that DPS checks should not be the sole thing making content difficult.

DPS checks and the pacing of content are more than likely going to be adjusted to account for whatever tank DPS ceilings wind up being.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

This is ignoring the dual role VIT will play; AP and HP. And so what if that's the case? We'll be getting our AP from 2 sources (most likely), and our left gear has plenty of both. Right gear has always had only 1 main stat on them.

It's not really an issue if our new left side gear will be a bit lower for the effectiveness of our AP, because it'll (probably) be that only stat that's not a 1:1 AP to stat ratio.

Course, if VIT is going to be 1:1 AP ratio, and STR does nothing, that throws everything off.

SE please give us the numbers

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If VIT is 1:1 AP then STR is literally worthless, and we'll have the HP of a full fending tank and the DPS of a full STR in one gearset, which I don't see happening honestly.

Ever since they first announced this change I always assumed we were going to wind up with VIT accessories that act like pentamelds, giving us higher DPS and HP than one over the other (slaying over fending or vice versa) but less than the maximum.

Either way, I'll continue hitting whatever the DPS ceiling winds up being. Hopefully everyone else does too, now that that ceiling can no longer be obscured by gear choices.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Full 210 DRK Xaela build.

The harder they nerf STR/buff VIT, the higher our AP will stay. Just food for thought for all those people hoping it'll be 50/50 so they can keep their slaying accessories. This also proves that even at the worst possible conversion rate our AP will only be about 100 points below a full STR tank now and roughly 200 points above a current full VIT build.

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wow

at the word "food" i just realized that if the damage scales from vit - tanks will be the only class wich will have buffood for their main-dmg stat o.ô;

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Originally Posted by Tint

wow

at the word "food" i just realized that if the damage scales from vit - tanks will be the only class wich will have buffood for their main-dmg stat o.ô;

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If food stays the same and the ratio for AP is skewed toward VIT, we might actually see an increase in tank DPS lol

However, I think it's likely they'll make food HP% or something similar.

Basically what it comes down to is we gain AP from left side, we lose a lot from right side, we lose some from potions (especially since VIT potions give less than STR ones), and we potentially gain a nice chunk from food. We also gain a bunch of health, but if boss damage goes up with that then it sort of just remains the same as before - if not, though, it's a buff to our health cushion without any downsides.

So it all boils down to what the ratio will end up being for VIT:STR. Could end up with more damage, could end up with less... in all likelyhood it'll be less, but yeah, who knows I guess.

Depending how hard a nerd this is, I'll be dropping the axe, the great sword. AND the sword and board. I don't like tanking without being able to inflict pain.

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Originally Posted by JakAlendi

Is there any reason that the ratios for VIT and STR have to add up to 1? Couldn't they do something like VIT*0.7 and STR*0.1 if they wanted to?

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As long as we end with the same attack power, it won't matter much, right.

Besides, since attack power is displayed on our character, it will be very easy to find the actual impact of both stats right away.

The main question is, will VIT x a% + STR x b% = 100% of current AP or not? Which brings us to the following... (more napkin math to come)

Legend: cSTR = Current STR value, which is STR:AP = 1:1. nSTR and nVIT are the new after patch changed VIT and STR values.

Now what if:

nSTR = 0.5 cSTR.
nVIT = 0.7 cSTR.

We end up with a (nSTR+nVIT):cSTR = 1.2:1

Now left side and weapons would be stronger than what they give today. But left side (either VIT or STR) would be weaker. But with the above rate, we may have a better overall (or equivalent) AP rate by equipping VIT or at least get the same AP as a penta-melded set of accessories.

Regardless if it's a damage nerf or not, I do think that the new beefier tank shouldn't be dealing the same DPS as the current full strength built tanks who were "squishier".

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Depending how hard a nerd this is, I'll be dropping the axe, the great sword. AND the sword and board. I don't like tanking without being able to inflict pain.

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Then you rolled tank for the wrong reasons. Even Xeno (the godfather of aggressive tanking) said this in a recent MogTalk. I can't guarantee you'll be missed =/

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The main question is, will VIT x a% + STR x b% = 100% of current AP or not? Which brings us to the following... (more napkin math to come)

Legend: cSTR = Current STR value, which is STR:AP = 1:1. nSTR and nVIT are the new after patch changed VIT and STR values.

Now what if:

nSTR = 0.5 cSTR.
nVIT = 0.7 cSTR.

We end up with a (nSTR+nVIT):cSTR = 1.2:1

Now left side and weapons would be stronger than what they give today. But left side (either VIT or STR) would be weaker. But with the above rate, we may have a better overall (or equivalent) AP rate by equipping VIT or at least get the same AP as a penta-melded set of accessories.

Regardless if it's a damage nerf or not, I do think that the new beefier tank shouldn't be dealing the same DPS as the current full strength built tanks who were "squishier".

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I agree. Trouble is so many tanks don't want to be tanky even if its handed to them on a platinum platter with 90% of the DPS they were just doing beforehand. Its clear and perfectly understandable to not allow tanks with so much HP to deal *as* much damage, and I'm totally prepared for/at peace with that. Whatever the damage ceiling is I'll still be hitting it and lovin' it.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I agree. Trouble is so many tanks don't want to be tanky even if its handed to them on a platinum platter with 90% of the DPS they were just doing beforehand. Its clear and perfectly understandable to not allow tanks with so much HP to deal *as* much damage, and I'm totally prepared for/at peace with that. Whatever the damage ceiling is I'll still be hitting it and lovin' it.

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I think this depends on one big thing, and I think it's why some tanks don't want to give up their damage for more VIT. If we are going to be given this surplus of health in exchange for a fraction of our damage output, we need to actually be taking damage that puts said health to good use. Currently, that's not the case, and that's a key reason why no one is stacking VIT in the first place - if you actually needed it then the STR meta wouldn't even exist, at least not in hardcore raiding. If damage remains the same, we just have all this random cushion health, tanking (ie staying in your DPS stance the whole time) remains the same, and now we just do less damage - so a flat nerf, as opposed to a trade off.

Hopefully SE has thought this through and will actually be ramping up the damage - I'd love to be back in tank stance again, IBing cleaves, scoffing off damage, stance dancing, the whole 9 yards. If we're just getting a repeat of what we have now only doing less damage, well... that's pretty disappointing, but I barely play the game anymore anyway so life goes on.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Hopefully SE has thought this through and will actually be ramping up the damage - I'd love to be back in tank stance again, IBing cleaves, scoffing off damage, stance dancing, the whole 9 yards. If we're just getting a repeat of what we have now only doing less damage, well... that's pretty disappointing, but I barely play the game anymore anyway so life goes on.

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I think its gonna happen. They've said DPS checks are going down, I think mitigation checks are gonna go up. I'd love more stance-dancing too. Currently in most fights you stance dance -once- and that's after your enmity opener, then its Sword Oath/Deliverance/Blood Weapon for the rest of the fight. I'm not too worried about it. I'm hoping A5-9S will hit like a sack of bricks.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think this depends on one big thing, and I think it's why some tanks don't want to give up their damage for more VIT.

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The thing is...you have no choice now. Maybe stacking VIT will make you deal less damage than nowadays, but stacking STR will be even worse.
And, since we're getting an increase in ilvl, you won't really feel the difference, unless intentionally keeping your ilvl "low" for Midas Savage, since your overall damage output will increase.