Paladins are a rodeo clown. Warriors are a matador.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aleczan

That's awesome.!

Maybe I just had bad luck with Roulette and WAR tanks. One WAR pulled everything until the last room before first boss in Dzemael and died and rage quit on me while BRD said it was my fault. That and so many other unlucky instances with WAR tanks that became my Duty Finder nightmares.....

---

i always look at the party composition for big pull and ask them if they want it or not
although most of the time i avoid big pull on lowbie dungeon (gear scaling suck)
i hope we will meet someday at DF : )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

as a warrior i could solo everything outside of duty finder and Rank A/S :p

---

This.

Leveling my Gladiator, I had to party a lot to complete FATEs. If there wasn't another class around I was pretty much screwed, not because I could not take hits but because I couldn't kill all 3-4 mobs attacking me before my HP went to zero.

Even on my Conjurer I could do FATEs without a group, because I'd just run away and heal / sleep. Contrast to my level 50 Paladin, who is only able to solo FATES because my item level is still high even when synched down. And even then, while I can solo a FATE it is pretty damn painful experience and only possible because my Chocobo is a healer. Trying to kill a lv48+ FATE boss at 3 am while solo is tough on a Paladin if the adds get at you, only because you have to kill them 1 by 1.

It's not impossible, but my Summoner would do it faster and with less effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

I hated every little second of leveling PLD, and well both low level tanks are just terribly designed, it's no wonder no one wants to play tanks, instead of stepping stones they have giant walls, and god forbid if you get a synced dps while you're not synced, hope you have the best gear at your level.

---

OMG Yes, this is sad but true. I've been helping friends through the 3 first dungeons (Sastasha-Tamtara-Copperbell) and she is a brand new player, on GLA. The other DPS persons, if they are synced from 50, always pulled hate. It was almost enough to make my GLA friend cry. She tried so hard, and mobs still run everywhere, even when I was helping her by giving advice through voice chat...

Recently, although GLA friend got to level 30 and changed to PLD and we were under level sync while helping the THM friend through the same 3 dungeons, hate still flew everywhere. We had one friendly and very understanding BLM last night and they even apologized for pulling hate. S/he was also very patient with us and said lots of nice stuff. THAT kindness and encouragement from the BLM helped both of my friends a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

i always look at the party composition for big pull and ask them if they want it or not
although most of the time i avoid big pull on lowbie dungeon (gear scaling suck)
i hope we will meet someday at DF : )

---

Thanks! I hope too. I wish people were more informative and communicative in Duty Finder. It is always better to discuss plan and agree on what to do and what not to do, than to just blindly dive in. I'm mainly scared of Duty Finder because people don't talk and just do it their own way without trying to be a team player. I have equally bad times in DF when it is DPS who does not cooperate. Started to develop a minor case of DF phobia, LOL.

My experience with Warriors in DF is vastly better than my experience with Paladins.

However, class design isn't entirely the reason. Probably, more new players are drawn to the classic sword/shield archetype and don't pick up on precisely how their chosen role is meant to be played. Which, y'know, isn't too big a problem as long as you're willing to learn and roll with it, but the GLDs in low-level dungeons figuring they'll just wear leather armor so that they can DPS instead of tank... :rolleyes: Still, it's probably frustrating figuring you'd be the epic unstoppable sword-wielding hero...and, I mean, you kinda are...but finding that you might as well be armed with a butterknife for all the damage you do isn't much fun.

Warrior's got a bit more technicality to it as well, so it probably appeals to the more cerebral, performance-focused player, who tend to do very well in groups (save for insufferable tunnel-visioned DPS for whom no one can pull fast enough)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HakuroDK

We have Foresight as our only defensive buff. That's it. Nothing else. Warriors also get garbage for cross-class abilities. For ideal abilities, we get... what, Provoke? That's pretty much it for useful Warrior abilities.

---

You're incorrect on both fields. MRD/WAR get Vengeance at level 46, which lowers damage taken by 30% for 15s. That's nothing to sneeze at for a defensive option, nor is Inner Beast at level 35 (job quest), which lowers damage taken by 20%. Combined, that's a 50% damage reduction, and Inner Beast can be used anytime you get 5 stacks of Wrath (meaning you can constantly have this ready for when a boss is about to use a burst move, such as Twintania's Death Sentence).

As for ideal abilities for Cross-class from PLD, you're forgetting Convalescence (20% healing increase) and Awareness (lowers odds of suffering a Critical). We can also get Featherfoot and Internal Release to help with mitigating damage (dodging is also useful) and raising the enmity gained (dem crits), and Second Wind for that glorious 15% Max HP heal THAT CAN CRIT. So there are in fact good options for the WAR class to mitigate damage and for a few other things.

Tanking with PLD in lower levels isn't impossible. I use to have a huge problem with it till I learned to just be a Flashadin pretty much throughout the dungeon. I've seen plenty of PLDs charging in, using one flash (typically misplaced not even hitting all the mobs) and then forget the ability entirely. Is it fun? Hell no, but its effective till you get your Shield Oath and full single target combo.

My biggest gripe with PLD is alongside those talking about its effectiveness while soloing. This is the first Paladin I've played in any game where his cure is complete, utter trash. I'm fine with the class/job being the one taking longer to kill stuff solo, but needs the throughput to do so. Rip out Cure from CNJ sub-class and throw PLD a heavy MP cost cure. Make it 20% MP or something, I don't care; just make it useful like previous Paladins, strong cures and low MP pools.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Paladin is the most boring class pre-level 50, I still can't believe we don't have an AoE attack until level 50. And even then it is lolScorn. Oh boy, auto-attack damage to a group once every 25 seconds. I'm sure those Warriors with Overpower and 2.5 second cooldown Steel Cyclone are jealous, amirite?

---

Oddly enough, I'm finding the same thing with Warrior being dull as sin compared to PLD. At least as a Gladiator I had defense CD to pop, as a marauder it's basically "me big brute, me smack you" which is about as mindless as it gets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

I am actually looking forward to mindlessly farming FATEs for Alexandrite, because at least I won't have to run these low level dungeons anymore to complete my books, where I have to spam Flash and the Riot Blade combo for MP while hoping the DPS actually use their AoE attacks.

---

Well, there's no cure for a rubbish Paladin. If you're spamming Riot Blade... you're doing it wrong. Savage Blade still has an enmity boost on it, so use it. Riot Blade does nothing for your enmity, and it's mild damage boost isn't going to save the WHM from aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Also, it is rather funny seeing people think Paladins have a higher DPS potential than Warriors do.

---

It's rather funny seeing Warriors assume that because they have a higher 'spike' damage that they can out DPS a Paladin. In the battle over time, Paladin wins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

=Against trash mobs=
Warriors can spam AoE damage. Paladins cannot.[

Winner: Warrior

---

Sure they can... they can also run out of TP in half the time by doing so. Paladin doesn't NEED to spam AoE to keep mobs. If you're doing this, you need to learn you job a little better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

=Against bosses=
Warriors can buff their damage higher than Paladins, and keep the buff up longer. Warriors can also reduce the enemy's resistance to the slashing damage the Warrior inflicts, another thing that Paladins cannot do.

Winner: Warrior

---

Are you a tank or a DPS? It sounds like you really want to level Dragoon or Monk, not a tank. Maybe you should look at a different job if you're aiming for big numbers. Again, all of that is just spike damage and doesn't necessarily represent all DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Paladins are like a rodeo clown -- we distract the bull for other folks to deal with --, whereas Warriors are a matador -- who kills the bull directly.

---

Yeah.. funny how Matadors always end up gored. I guess that's a pretty good analogy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

When there is only two classes in the game for tanking, you probably don't want one of them to be kind of frustrating to play.

---

Yeah, for me that's Warrior. Sorry, but I didn't sign up to be a TANK just to play another lacklustre DPS. You can boast about your 'awesome' damage all you like, but it still pales in comparison to actual DPS classes. I wanted some actual defense to go with that brute strength, and instead I got a giant MP sink with an axe. Um.. yay?

I still fully intend to max it out, since it's literally the last job I have that isn't capped yet, but so far it's my least favourite job. So don't talk like you're speaking for the rest of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You're incorrect on both fields. MRD/WAR get Vengeance at level 46, which lowers damage taken by 30% for 15s. That's nothing to sneeze at for a defensive option, nor is Inner Beast at level 35 (job quest), which lowers damage taken by 20%. Combined, that's a 50% damage reduction, and Inner Beast can be used anytime you get 5 stacks of Wrath (meaning you can constantly have this ready for when a boss is about to use a burst move, such as Twintania's Death Sentence).

---

That's really the biggest problem I have with Warrior. Sure they have a defense CD, but it's really selective. Can only be used with 5 stacks, and you lose wrath with more than just 1 skill. Paladin, on the other hand, has cooldowns which are off GCD, can be used literally any time to defend against big hitters and even stacked to reap the extra defense if necessary. As both a White Mage and a Scholar, I can honestly hand-on-heart say that Warriors need considerably more heals to stay alive than a Paladin would in the same situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

As for ideal abilities for Cross-class from PLD, you're forgetting Convalescence (20% healing increase) and Awareness (lowers odds of suffering a Critical). We can also get Featherfoot and Internal Release to help with mitigating damage (dodging is also useful) and raising the enmity gained (dem crits), and Second Wind for that glorious 15% Max HP heal THAT CAN CRIT. So there are in fact good options for the WAR class to mitigate damage and for a few other things.

---

I'd argue that some of their best and most useful skills actually come from cross-class. You know there's something wrong with the job when it's impossible to play without having levelled its rival class. It's virtually impossible to be a good tank without having Provoke, and literally impossible for the later battles where you NEED this skill. Second Wind is basically the only way I can ease the suffering WHM as a Marauder, who basically has to spam cures to keep me alive. The only other defensive cooldown I have is... Foresight. Yeah, do I even need to explain why that sucks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

It's not false information :l

Spike damage != DPS

---

it's true, that the spike damage, however, the warrior increase all him damage from 20% when the sword oath only increase auto attack damage by 50%. other point, warrior reduce defense against slashing damage by 10% and reduce the damage deal by the target of 10% as off tank the warrior is more powerfull by far and more interesting than the paladin. however, in terms of main tank, paladin is far better.

but seriously the paladin that try to say: "we can deal as much or more damage than the warrior" are simply clueless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

Well, there's no cure for a rubbish Paladin. If you're spamming Riot Blade... you're doing it wrong. Savage Blade still has an enmity boost on it, so use it. Riot Blade does nothing for your enmity, and it's mild damage boost isn't going to save the WHM from aggro.

---

Savage Blade and RoH are perfect for handling groups when it isn't an AoE spamfest with more than 3 mobs.

Let's say it's a fairly big big pull, 5+ mobs: PLD only has one AoE Emnity gain move, which is Flash. Not a bad skill, but it eats a fair bit of MP and if you have two DPS AoE-ing everything then Savage Blade and RoH won't be much help unless you got enough hate beforehand and can cycle through all 5+ the mobs with SB and RoH. But that usually isn't the case, it's usually Shield Lob to grab monsters, then you get a flash and lolscorn in as soon as the BLMs or whoever's with you shoots off their AoE. At that point it's a Flash spam or risk losing at least some of the mobs. Out of MP and mobs still alive? It won't be long before a flare rips them away from a PLD. Riotblade combo is the only thing to get MP back mid battle, and no enmity on it. That is unless you have a bard with you and is kind enough to battlevoice a mage ballad.

That said, it certainly isn't impossible to maintain hate on a group of mobs while it's getting blasted with AoEs, but it can be fair bit harder for PLD's in trash pulls since Flash is crap in terms of enmity gain compared to Overpower.