Simplicity over complexity, time to change.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

He did simplicity for the sake of simplicity in many areas of ARR, though.

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Which isn't the same thing.

Lets look back at the "complexity" of FFXI:

- Did FFXI have BiS? Depends on your definition of BiS, because what FFXI had plenty of was "macro this piece of gear in when you use this ability/magic". Yes we had more stats, but in the end these did not lead to the personalization people spout about, it just led to equip swaps macros with more lines. Complexity for the sake of complexity.

- Were the battles of FFXI complex because they had random elements? Not by a longshot.

- Would FFXIV be a better game if we had specific spells to cure specific status effects like we did in FFXI? Oh, the game would be more "complex", surely, but better? No, not really, because again, it was just complexity for the sake of complexity.

And finally lets look at some of the "complexity" that they added in recent updates:

- chocobo feed being tied to gardening.
- magicked brooms.
- desynthesis cap.

Oh yeah, those were all popular.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And here we have the real arguement. This isn't about the game being 'too simple' or 'watered down...

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You'r hateful posts are popular as always, normal, ppl seems to like drama and trolling in the forums, i don't know if you do this because you really believe in your hate or just to feel like you won a discussion in the forums, it's not like that at all, you are just throwing away your special snowflake syndrome argument as always.

Just gonna say you're wrong, this is not about ffxi, even if i tend to compare and defend it, the truth is i don't have the time to get involved in another FFXI style game, and most ffxi players think the same way. The game is too simple and watered down, this is in fact the real argument. Of course there will always be some ffxi homeless players, and changing the game to please them and only them would be bad, that's not what we are trying to achieve here, we are just looking for a way to please everyone.

PS: i already said in the op that post like yours aren't welcome, move your flame war to another thread, i have seen enough of your posts to know you are not helpful.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Personal attacks will get us nowhere. Please don't assume that because one person doesn't like something that they fall into some demonized category.
That goes for all of us.

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You're right, now i feel a bit embarrassed for doing this on my own thread, i just tend to over-defend my position when my opinions are treated on a hateful manner, lets be cool.

Also, yes, what's a gurgler?

After the debacle that is hunts, where SE can somehow mistake dangerous open world content = hunts, I worry about how they will "cater" to their playerbase next. That being said, I can't really say no to more complex gear, combat and stat system. I am also in favor of less scripted fights and more challenging encounters overall which forces the player to think and react rather than to memorize. The only thing I do not want to see is excessive horizontal progression. I think the horizontal progession we have at the moment is just fine, sands and oils as an alternative to high allagan gear and customizable novus are all good examples of this.

I just wish that SE realizes that the forums make up a small part of the playerbase, and posts like these while constructive, do not represent the views of the community as a whole. I hope that before they implement any major changes that they will do a player poll like they did before 2.0 released. I remember one of the questions polled to the playerbase was if they would like instanced or non instanced content. It would be interesting to see if the opinions of the players changed one year after the game is released.

Personally, I am pretty satisfied with the game and would prefer to see 3.0 closer to 2.0 than 1.0 or 1.23.

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Originally Posted by Renik

But this is already happening, some ppl is leaving and more will leave, and once they are gone it will be very difficult to get them back. And i'm not only talking about 1.0 and XI veterans, even if someone is satisfied with the game now, it will get boring in the end because of it's repetitiveness and simplicity, every new player that takes the game seriously will become a veteran in the end, or will just grow up and see how this game is too small for them.

The good thing is i'm starting to see changes, but the change is happening too slowly and we are losing players every day.

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And you lost all credibility with this.

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Originally Posted by Teroril

SNIP

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I imagine we may see some of what you listed in the expansion. The way I look at the current open world map is that this is a very much a tamed continent. There's soldiers of some kind all over the place to quell the wilds, transportation hubs are plentiful. The original maps for FFXI weren't too much different. If you were max level (50) there wasn't much of a threat even in Xarcabard unless you got swarmed. It was RoZ that brought the most dangerous zones were even a 75 had to think twice about not hitting sneak/invis. If it's done right the expansion for XIV will introduce some less tamed areas where there may only be 1 aetheryte for miles and miles and extremely dangerous wildlife.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

ome peoples definition of complex and hard content, such as FFXI, just sounds like utter boredom to me

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SCH in XI for example was 'complex', just like Puppetmaster was 'complex', Blue Mage was also complex and some fights like say Shinryu has 'complexity' to it because it's more than just 'by the script.' So if actually being active and not following a 100% script is boring..yeah anything other than a simple MMO would be boring to you.

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and perhaps not something shoved down every players throat. My personal greatest fear for a game is not things like DF or casual players, but an 'elitist' attitude or community.

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Too late, just mention XI and watch the hate comments roll in. Mention "going against the standard" and watch the hate comments roll in.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Which isn't the same thing.

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So - Being "complex for the sake of complexity" isn't the same as 'Being simple for the sake of simplicity"?

Alrighty then.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

After the debacle that is hunts, where SE can somehow mistake dangerous open world content = hunts, I worry about how they will "cater" to their playerbase next. That being said, I can't really say no to more complex gear, combat and stat system. I am also in favor of less scripted fights and more challenging encounters overall which forces the player to think and react rather than to memorize. The only thing I do not want to see is excessive horizontal progression. I think the horizontal progession we have at the moment is just fine, sands and oils as an alternative to high allagan gear and customizable novus are all good examples of this.

Personally, I am pretty satisfied with the game and would prefer to see 3.0 closer to 2.0 than 1.0 or 1.23.

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This is what i want to see, my opinions are just opinions, we are here to see what the player-base wants, i think we all agree in one thing, this game is not perfect, and part of this imperfection is the simplicity of the game.

You think the gear progression is fine, but there is not real horizontal progression, in the end all that matters is ilvl, there's not real choice, we have 2 sources of gear, soldiery and HA, only these can be upgraded and most ppl will just get the easy route because, well the hard one is too hard and the difference is minimal. I don't think a wide range of gear is going to work, not with an ilvl system, but maybe adding more sources of gear and specialized stats will give us more freedom, real choices, there will always be min/maxers, but most ppl will just gear the way they feel more comfortable to them.

We can have horizontal gear progression w/o having an annoying number of sets.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

And you lost all credibility with this.

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I don't see how.

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Originally Posted by Renik

, horizontal gear progression(keeping the ilvl system, some players seem to like it)...

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I believe the horizontal progression will come it's just they aren't going to do it when there's a level cap increase coming. Even FFXI didn't grow horizontally until 75 cap and it actually took two expansions to REALLY grow as the extent of it in Rise of the Zilart was choosing between Sky/God gear and AF2 and the occasional crafted piece for macro swapping. Either way though, horizontal progression is just the illusion of variety as you always wind up with "Best in Slot", especially with XIV since you cannot macro swap like in XI and carry gear pieces optimal for single abilities. Doesn't mean they can't put it in of course, but we'll still end up with a "best" set and material load out. Now if you could hot swap material based on the encounter a la VII...

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

SCH in XI for example was 'complex', just like Puppetmaster was 'complex', Blue Mage was also complex and some fights like say Shinryu has 'complexity' to it because it's more than just 'by the script.' So if actually being active and not following a 100% script is boring..yeah anything other than a simple MMO would be boring to you.

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SCH...decide if you're nuking or healing.. put up correct Storm...nuke/heal...PUP...sort of...had to be smart with your maneuvers...BLU..illusion...once you slotted the "Must have" spells you only had room for a couple of more "flexible" spells. Beyond that...swing sword...self SC... Shinryu lol spam for procs...hit potion...rape. If you did him straight up he DID have a script btw..and phases...

I hope the OP isn't one of those people that complain about the atma.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And here we have the real arguement. This isn't about the game being 'too simple' or 'watered down', it's simply because this game is popular and thus, the cynical, jaded and horribly self-entitled 'FFXI/1.0 veterans' as you term yourself are now nothing more than little fish in a very big and crowded pond. Oh boohoo. The sum total of a handful of hipster gamers who pine for the days of Everquest and earlier do not pay game developers' bills. If ARR hadn't been developed to appeal to a wider demographic, then Square Enix would have gone down the gurgler, and would have taken both your beloved FFXIV version 1.0, and FFXI, down with it. And then where would you have all been?

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Please don't attack peoples character based on assumption.

You're both frustrated with each other for wanting gameplay you both oppose. But you're not a worse gamer for wanting accessibility, and Zan isn't an egotist for wanting more complex gameplay.
He and many others are frustrated because there really aren't any games that embrace that sort of complexity or depth anymore. Even FF11 is a shell of what it once was. Companies seem to be embracing the same route of appealing to as many people as possible with little change that it's becoming boring and stale for him. In embracing the lowest common, they loose the parts that make them unique and interesting.

Personal attacks will get us nowhere. Please don't assume that because one person doesn't like something that they fall into some demonized category.
That goes for all of us.

Also, what is a gurgler?