The Striking Tree versus Turn 2

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Originally Posted by JTribal

If this was such a huge issue, why did they not patch Titan Egi when people started using him to tank King Mog?

I understand the fights are different, but in King Mog, this completely eliminated the need to tank swap, tank mogs never got stacks, and the overall stress level of the fight was way lower.

I guess I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, since I would personally prefer to get a win using the correct method as it was intended. Still, the logic does not make sense.

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For King Mog, no mechanic was actually being ignored. The tank swap is caused by the king buffing the tanking add it's next to. If the team creates a situation that has the King always away from all mobs, then that's just a good strategy.
It's also vary dangerous to have just 1 tank tanking both the war and pal moggle since the pal gives a debuff to amplify the war's attacks (overgearing the fight makes it possible but that applies to a lot of things). Two tanks are still required here unless Titan is tanking an add as well in which case he would struggle to survive compared to a player.

For Ramuh, Titan was able to survive without the need to gather orbs. This was a blatant skip of a mechanic then it was a means to avoid it. Had the Titan EGI been required to gather orbs like any other tank or die from ignoring them, then this would not be an issue.

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Originally Posted by JTribal

If this was such a huge issue, why did they not patch Titan Egi when people started using him to tank King Mog?

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The difference is, Titan-egi takes 10% of literally ALL damage dealt by Ramuh, because literally everything Ramuh does is an AoE strike. In particular, Ramuh has a mechanic that is intended to deal an IK to the tank unless the tank follows a specific mechanic (i.e. grab three orbs and obtain the Surge Protection status effect), but this IK is... also AoE damage, so Titan-egi gets more badly hurt by Ifrit farting than Ramuh EX's IK mechanic. Using a Titan-egi on the King Mog fight is a much, much more difficult strategy because Titan-egi still takes normal damage from most of the stuff the King does. (Even if you use Titan-egi to tank Whiskerwall or Ruffletuft, he'll still be taking regular damage from most of the things they do except those Dark Resist Down and Light Resist Down attacks.)



tl;dr Using Titan-egi on Ramuh EX lets you excise tanks entirely from the party and makes the fight -easier- in the process. It makes tanks undesirable. Using Titan-egi on Mog EX still requires tanks in the party and is still an arguably more difficult mechanic. Far from making anyone undesirable, it makes summoners a more desirable member for that fight.

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Originally Posted by Codek

It's also vary dangerous to have just 1 tank tanking both the war and pal moggle since the pal gives a debuff to amplify the war's attacks (overgearing the fight makes it possible but that applies to a lot of things). Two tanks are still required here unless Titan is tanking an add as well in which case he would struggle to survive compared to a player.

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I think what he's talking about is using Titan-egi as a "third tank", so you have now three entities on the field at different places, each one tanking one of King Mog, Ruffletuft, or Whiskerwall. (Probably would want Titan-egi on one of the tank moogles, since it would take less damage from Sifting Mogdark and Sifting Moglight.)

For the people saying it's not the same because Ramuh EX gave parties the ability to completely exclude a role. Behold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoGd-wMF3Qo

The Irony in this thread is palpable...

I'm not a proponent of either side of this as i both play tank and play routinely with friends who are tanks so i always go with them regardless.

However,

The majority of the arguments being used against Titan-Egi tanking are near identical to the ones that were presented during the Turn 2 enrage debate.

Blatant aversion to mechanics?

Lets not forget that T2 enrage didn't remove the mechanics of just a SINGLE job from the fight.

It negated the design of the turn in it's entirety.

By doing enrage you no longer had to pick and choose what moves to remove from ADS (Ballast, Firestorm, etc) based on your party composition, nor did you have to plan for resistances (mage heavy party vs ranged or melee heavy) you no longer had to learn or dodge ANY mechanics in the fight, and you no longer had to pass Allagan Rot, you sat there either over geared or stacked healers and turned the fight into a glorified striking dummy.

And i guess we forgot the large number of threads started by tanks being left out of the fight due to this very issue seeing as you only need 1 for enrage.

The general forum response to those threads and threads by melee DPS who were getting left out of other endgame fights due to job advantages (BRD, BLM, SMN) was basically "Make a Party Finder for it then"

While i can agree that Titan-Egi tanking most likely wasn't intended for this (btw he can tank almost all the other Ex Primals with a decent group) I find the decision to amend this so suddenly quite odd given the precedent was far worse and basically hand waved by the devs as "player creativity"

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

I think what he's talking about is using Titan-egi as a "third tank", so you have now three entities on the field at different places, each one tanking one of King Mog, Ruffletuft, or Whiskerwall. (Probably would want Titan-egi on one of the tank moogles, since it would take less damage from Sifting Mogdark and Sifting Moglight.)

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Thanks, that's kind of what I was getting at. PS if you ever try Titan Egi method in Mog Ex, I probably wouldn't put egi on anything but KM, the tanks' hate will reset during periods of the fight and the Egi cannot get it back in time. Also, the Egi would probably accidentally kill one of the mogs too soon if the Summoner isn't paying attention.

10% is kind of cazy, thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

That's quite an understatement, an enrage mechanich that makes the fight actually easier it's not a "loophole" it's a major design flaw.

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I still stand my ground in calling it a loophole considering passing rot is not hard at all. People found out that that spam ADS does at the end can be healed through. It's no huge flaw, it didn't make the fight significantly easier. Unless of course you found that "stand next to the person with the giant 4 over them when rots about to end" challenging lol

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Snip.

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By your logic then summoners should pack up their bags and go home. As someone stated earlier the reason they are designed to take low magic damage is so they can actually survive through fights as they can't really dodge as a normal player can. From someone who has tried both methods on the ramuh fight, while yes the titan egi was easier, I can honestly say I'm glad they patched it. I can see why. He wasn't effected by the 1 shot mechanic, their wasn't a need for orb collecting aside from getting them out of the way. Lol, practically solo healed it too. Wasn't very challenging. :/

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Turn 2 didn't remove a role entirely from the encounter. Just made it an easy solo tank. That and it showed up late in Coil 1s cycle as only geared groups could manage it reliably. Ramuh exploit showed up immediately and eliminated both tanks. Johnny PLD shouldn't be expected to grind a new role because "NO TANKS ALLOWED". Also if this continued we'd end up with a nightmare once Ramuh EX became solo DFable with no one knowing what to do with two tanks and no SMN.

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Actually you could easilly clear T2 enrage method pre 2.2 with a drg tanking and a whm/ sch healing. You just had the whm spam stoneskin on the drg to stop stacks.

T2 was discovered / discussed late into Coil. The pet tank was found out and fixed immediately. Mainly for the reason of not excluding players. Players will always choose the easiest route to rewards. Why take a tank to Ramuh if you didn't have to? You wouldn't.