This game is play to win.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

I'm so sick of logging on after work, and seeing people with more time than me getting more and more stuff done. I can only play for a couple hours a night so SE shouldn't let anyone else play until I can.

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I think this is called "Play to win" rather.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

Err. . . that's what I said.

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Oh you did and that's how it should be. Then again, everything is lockout and easy to get so more time doesn't really have much of an advantage.

If you play an offline console game more, aren't you further ahead then someone that isn't?

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Originally Posted by Doo

I think this is called "Play to win" rather.

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Err. . . that's what I said.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Oh you did and that's how it should be.

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No way, I'm going away next weekend. SE needs to push the patch back a week. Or else the game really will become play2win.

I pray you are not taking the original post seriously. Please. . . my faith in these forums is pretty low already.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

my faith in these forums is pretty low already.

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You actually had faith in these forums? :) The only faith I have in these forums is for the entertainment it provides from all raging when I'm at work.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

"Any extra income" I cannot agree with as that does include pay to win. So long as the extra income they are seeking comes from providing, completely optional, convenience related services, that don't hurt anyone paying only their base sub fees, I agree.

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Alright, I worded that wrong since I also don't agree with pay2win, and any extra income should only come for any additional convenience services like you said. I completely agree with you on the overreaction too. As you mentioned before though, if this retainer nonsense counts as pay2win then so does my Legacy account. I could do the exact same thing with eight characters on my server. That puts me at a higher advantage than the person with the basic account and four retainers without even having to pay a dime extra while they have to pay more. That's like a pay2win with a discount lol.

Sooo... I would hardly call the retainer situation game breaking or pay2win. The venture currency needs to be farmed to send the retainers out in the first place and then they need to be leveled to get anything near useful. The majority of the things the retainers can go out and get aren't worth much in game to begin with... at least not on my server. Five animal skins every hour until the retainer reaches level 2 doesn't seem like it will hurt anyone. It's not like they start at level 50 and can stock up on apkallu eggs right away. It's not going to get anyone godly gear either. I can actually see more people using this as a way to get around farming and not having to deal with ten other people all fighting for the same camp. This is especially beneficial for people who will actually use those items instead of just selling them. It won't hurt the people that sell materials either. If a crafter needed something for whatever reason right away and their retainer hadn't returned from their venture, then they can still just buy whatever it is they need.

Also, if someone really needs the extra space that desperately then that's just a convenience for them. I really do see this as a convenience service rather than pay2win like some people seem to see at as.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

It's semantics really. If Ventures can be undertaken on all retainers then the guy that can pay $4 more a month than the next guy clearly has an in-game advantage, (regardless of how small it may seem) and this goes against the spirit of subscription games.

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Except we have no idea how any of this works until the patch actually hits. If there's a cap on the tokens used for ventures, then the person with 4 retainers has no tangible advantage over the person with 2 retainers; the tokens simply get used up faster. The only valid argument I've seen for "pay to advantage" is that you can sell more things, but that's limited to crafters and marketers.

I think the problem with the differing opinion is that not all of us in the community have played the same multiplayer online games. Not just RPG's, but other games like shooters and...Whatever LoL is. There are all these opinions on what a cashshop is, what it ought to be, and what it meant for the future of games long since past. Many feel it's a slipperly slope. I'm not sure I feel that, just yet at least.

I don't feel threatened by it, but it does annoy me to some extent. We know the reasoning behind it (server loads) and that's alright. However as far as the excuse of 'server loads', Yoshida in interviews and live letters uses this reason as one big excuse for everything. I have to wonder if this game is steady enough to carry on as is if things are really that bad. Are the extra 2~ dollars per month per retainer and extra character actually alleviating some of the costs? Or could more money go into fixing the server's structures as a long term investment.

FFXI had similar add on ventures such as the Robe for purchasing real life items (a necklace I think?) which was a one time purchase. If they raised the price per retainer purchased, permanently, it would fix an issue where a person might not have the money that month and need to let the retainer slide. Items would be locked out, and who knows. Maybe the extra retainer just isn't worth it. Who knows, perhaps the persistent fee will be abolished down the road, and subscribers will be awarded for it.

But as an aside, I guess many of us will need to just look at what we're saving and store what we can in the patch (seasonal event items) to our armoire and sell/destroy what we don't really need. Hoarding is an issue, let's just be real on that. (I don't /really/ need all these bat wings, but what if!)


edit: On the subject of Ventures. From what I've seen in previews, you send your retainer out for an hour and they can come back with maybe like FIVE of an item. I don't think that's really an advantage. In one hour I could get like, 2 stacks of animal skins, where my retainer in an hour could get 5 (I think animal skin was the example from a pull down list in the video.)

Also retainer ventures cost GC seals, 1000 for 5? Five hours for 1000 seals, could get you 25+ of an item. This is good for people who need to go to work who might need just a little more of a thing but don't have the time to go out themselves and don't want to buy it. Its just a little thing. I don't think this will become a huge deal.

Making extra retainers to cost small amount of money is actually good thing, if those would be free then goldfarmers/sellers would also get more freebie bots on top of their current bots. Instead SE now gives bots for players instead goldfarmers, sure botters can still buy those aswell but it will cost extra for them too if they so choose.

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Originally Posted by namirei

Alright, I worded that wrong since I also don't agree with pay2win, and any extra income should only come for any additional convenience services like you said.

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Yes I understood what you meant. I just wanted to clarify. Since someone already said semantics once, might as well not make it a target.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Things about stuff

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It also takes more than 1 token thingy too for certain things as well.

Don't play MMO's. /thread.

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SE can't make everyone happy, and other things said.

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I really doubt anyone would have complained if it had been done through some kind of quest. Unless they made the quest evil, "or how old school gamers would expect".

At least I don't think anyone would have come here to complain like, "I hate doing quest for things in game, can't I just throw money at you and you give me it?".