Tanks lose aggro when they take dmg?

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Just curious here, maybe I'm missing something, but why would the OT ever use Flash on a mob that the MT is on, seems like asking to pull hate?

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Flash is a fairly minimal amount of threat. The MT is much better off going through their RoH combo. Myself and our other PLD regularly apply flash for each other when we're OTing in Coil.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

The mt in my raid group told me that tank loses aggro as they take dmg, so i shouldnt dps the dreadnaught in sword oath with Rage of Halone.

Is this true?

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That was true for FFXI, not for FFXIV. You SHOULD be DPSing in sword oath when there's nothing else to do, which is rare.

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

The blind debuff is about all I can think of.

Every time a MT uses a GCD for flash, they'll generate less hate over time on a single target boss than if they just continued to cycle their RoH combo... so it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use it for them, just like it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use "Stoneskin" on the MT before a big spike hit (I do this in Turn 2) - Healer MP is conserved, no enmity is lost and not much DPS is lost. It's not something you want to spam, but use situationally and occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Flash is a fairly minimal amount of threat. The MT is much better off going through their RoH combo. Myself and our other PLD regularly apply flash for each other when we're OTing in Coil.

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Yeah, I was referring to what someone listed as an opening, before hate control has been established at all. I suppose if the OT isn't doing something more useful, and whatever is being fought is blind-able sure. I can't think of too many places where it's truly useful, on trash your OT is wasting potential damage, and on bosses well, they're sacrificing damage ... I suppose if it's blind-able it could be worth it though.

On the stoneskin front, I'm 100% on board with that one.

Sounds like you just deal more damage than the MT and are generating more threat than they are. You need to watch the threat meter (the little white bars underneath everyone's class icon in the party window) and make sure to weave in Riot Blade combos when you are getting close to taking agro.

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Originally Posted by Splice

shield oath generates more enmity per halone combo than sword oath (the oath should not affect your OT)

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False.
The enmity modifier is about 1.2.
The actual damage loss is about 25%.
It doesn't make up for the damage loss, ergo, Paladin in no Oath generates more agro.
WAR has the same isue.

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Originally Posted by Splice

shield oath generates more enmity per halone combo than sword oath (the oath should not affect your OT)
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I'm only disagreeing with this point. The enmity multiplier for Shield oath is equal or less than the damage loss.

Therefore when the OT does their RoH combo they will create the same enmity (not taking into account crits etc) BUT the benefit of Sword Oath's auto attacks actually outweigh the the enmity buff from Shield Oath. So it's possible that the OT will steal hate when using RoH.

I originally thought Shield Oath enmity was broken after I did some playing around but someone explained it to me on these forums.

To be honest you should be looking at the threat meter anyway. If you're close to stealing hate then chill for a sec, use Riot Blade, cast a stoneskin on the MT and let the MT build hate for a bit.

EDIT - Small example. Helping a friend in Castrum today and the OT PLD would steal hate from me on the last boss using Sword oath.

Said PLD had hoplite and Ifrit blade.

I have Myth / DL with relic +1.

Ended up just going Sword Oath to make things faster anyway.

I was going through my post history looking for something the other day and found a post I made on the 1.0 forums saying that this mechanic hasn't been in since around since about 1.18. On the other hand, I can't find it listed anywhere in the patch notes. Regardless, it's never been the case in ARR as far as I'm aware, so your MT was wrong.

Shieldoath reduces the the damage dealt but increasing enmity about the same amount. Autoattacks are at 100+25% enmity

Swordoath doesnt suffer reduction and has no benefits in enmity. Basicly the the skills do the same aggro. Autoattacks are at 150+0% enmity.

He´s right that you will easily draw aggro in swordoath but for the wrong reason. It´s about the autoattacks since the rest is about the same enmity (except Flash).

An easy solution in cases of singletargettanking is the offtank takes the blindingduty. With the OT weaving in Flash the MT has no issue Holding aggro spamming Halone.

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Originally Posted by Sinaloa

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These numbers are off by a bit, in shield oath should be Auto-attacks are 80+25%enmity, not a huge difference in the long run, but it is a difference.

Anyway, after(well while) running Cape Westwind earlier today I had a realization.
Myself outgearing the other Pld that was there neither of us taunting/flashing/etc. just pure DPS rotations while in Sword Oath.

Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I out damaged him, and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I took initial hate, FoF > Shield Lob > CoS > RoH spam w/ FoF/SW/CoS kept on CD full time and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth

Someone explain to me again how we "know" that there is no enmity falloff, either with damage taken or over time.

ITT: Some Paladins doing Coil have no idea how enmity works.