Somewhat Constant HQ Crafts Tips?

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Originally Posted by Millimidget

Neither of which is as good as Waste Not.
I know you meant to say Steady Hands II. I have some issue with Steady Hands. The tooltip for the ability Steady Hands I reads +20% chance for success, but the tooltip for the associated buff reads only +10% chance for success. I don't have culinary high enough to check Steady Hands II, but it possibly suffers from the same issue. My own limited testing supported +10% as the actual buff, but I only tracked 100 syntheses.

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Waste Not is good in situation where you're sure you won't need to do a Tricks of the Trade. Otherwise, it's not better than Manipulation. And yeah I meant Steady Hands II. The tool tip is correct as you'll never see a Standard Touch (80%) fail with Steady Hands (20%) or Basic Touch (70%) fail with Steady Hands II (30%). Testing with Hasty Touch is imperative at best as there is no way you can tell how 70% or 80% probability works but you can tell when 100% is indeed 100%.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Waste Not is good in situation where you're sure you won't need to do a Tricks of the Trade. Otherwise, it's not better than Manipulation. And yeah I meant Steady Hands II. The tool tip is correct as you'll never see a Standard Touch (80%) fail with Steady Hands (20%) or Basic Touch (70%) fail with Steady Hands II (30%). Testing with Hasty Touch is imperative at best as there is no way you can tell how 70% or 80% probability works but you can tell when 100% is indeed 100%.

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Not really, wastenot is critical in 40/40 rotations, and decent in 70/80.
Once people get blessing, they live on the 4x hasty or 4x basic (depending on cp).

Another pro tip of wastenot is 5 dura. 5 dura rounds up as 10 dura, thus you are afforded one trick or one "free" dura.

Here's a rotation:
wastenot->steady2 -> basic 4 -> you end up with a 5dura situation and a free steady2 at the end, which is very useful in many rotational calculations.

wastnot2 is crap though

Waste Not is *barely* more CP effective than Manipulation, which itself is *barely* more CP effective than Master's Mend.

Waste Not : 2 "free" moves, 56 CP : 28 CP per "free" move.
Manipulation : 3 "free" moves, 88 CP. 29.333 CP per "free" move.
Master's Mend : 3 "free" moves, 92 CP. 30.666 CP per "free" move.

Notice the pattern? Each move's effectiveness is 1.333 CP from the next in that little line, on a per turn basis.

Waste Not and Manipulation are both very valuable on the 40 Durability recipes. They have their advantages and disadvantages. A well-thought out plan would make use of both, and not just one or the other, as long as CP permit it.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Waste Not is *barely* more CP effective than Manipulation, which itself is *barely* more CP effective than Master's Mend.

Waste Not : 2 "free" moves, 56 CP : 28 CP per "free" move.
Manipulation : 3 "free" moves, 88 CP. 29.333 CP per "free" move.
Master's Mend : 3 "free" moves, 92 CP. 30.666 CP per "free" move.

Notice the pattern? Each move's effectiveness is 1.333 CP from the next in that little line, on a per turn basis.

Waste Not and Manipulation are both very valuable on the 40 Durability recipes. They have their advantages and disadvantages. A well-thought out plan would make use of both, and not just one or the other, as long as CP permit it.

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On NQ 40/40 you would use both wastenot and manipulations, but if you have any HQ in there, manipulations is not needed. In fact manipulations is the killer in 40/40 and only used if you can brute force it with CP.

If you have HQ mats in 40/40 you can do it without manipulations, since you need average of 5 touches to 100% a blessing. You can achieve that with waste not and basic touch (due to the cp savings).

For 100% failsafe 40/40 NQ you need both wastenot and manipulations in spades, but a need of 370cp is extremely hard for many people.

Again, they are not that far apart from one another in terms of CP per "free" turn.

You could just as easily state that you only need Manipulation to achieve those 5 Touches. Both are valuable, both are important, and neglecting one entirely in favor of the other is foolish.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Again, they are not that far apart from one another in terms of CP per "free" turn.

You could just as easily state that you only need Manipulation to achieve those 5 Touches. Both are valuable, both are important, and neglecting one entirely in favor of the other is foolish.

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CP CP CP and more CP. the more you save, the more hasty becomes basic, and the more basic becomes hasty in reverse.

To HQ, and this seems to be a harder then expected lesson, you have to get your numbers down before you start the HQ attempt.

You can say all you need is basic touch, and master mend if you can brute force CP it. That's not the point.

and finally wtf are you on, wastenot is 56cp, manipulation is 88cp. that's 32cp to use.

In a 40/40 synth, where 2 waste nots can do the job of wastenot+manuplation, you have just replaced 2 hasty rng with basic touch no rng. Consistent HQ is turning your rotation to as much basic touch as possible and less consistent is turning it into hasty.

Depending on your craftmenship, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

I'm well aware of the costs to use them - I did put them into a post you quoted in this thread, did I not?

I also, in that same post, went and did a little cost analysis, which you seemed to ignore. And on that basis, there is little difference between Waste Not, Manipulation, and even Master's Mend. They all have their pros and cons, and they are all useful. Waste Not is the cheapest, and the most cost effective. Manipulation is a bit more expensive, but only slightly less cost effective, due to the extra "free" turn.

That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

On NQ 40/40 you would use both wastenot and manipulations, but if you have any HQ in there, manipulations is not needed. In fact manipulations is the killer in 40/40 and only used if you can brute force it with CP.


For 100% failsafe 40/40 NQ you need both wastenot and manipulations in spades, but a need of 370cp is extremely hard for many people.

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Waste Not runs marginally in the middle of the pack statistically for value per CP. What statistics doesn't account for is it allows you to play with halves.
Nothing else will essentially allow you to finish a synth at -5 durability.
This means statistically it is worth doing as is, but fundamental is absolutely worth doing once. In fact the very best 100% synth configuration that removes the RNG by eliminating hasty touch only uses Waste Not so the synth finishes at -5 and saves CP.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Waste Not is good in situation where you're sure you won't need to do a Tricks of the Trade. Otherwise, it's not better than Manipulation. And yeah I meant Steady Hands II. The tool tip is correct as you'll never see a Standard Touch (80%) fail with Steady Hands (20%) or Basic Touch (70%) fail with Steady Hands II (30%). Testing with Hasty Touch is imperative at best as there is no way you can tell how 70% or 80% probability works but you can tell when 100% is indeed 100%.

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Again Waste not is as efficient with 3 uses as it is with using all 4, so if you need to reapply SH or use ToT you still get benefit from WN because of the ability to finish the synth at -5

Waste not is good for the first round of the 40/40 syn.

Steady Hand II > Waste Not and you'll have 4 turns of 30% chance of success boost that cost only 5 dur each.