Dark Knight Megathread

I hated SB's DA with a passion, due to the insane MP generation and the fact that most of its defensive purposes were stripped from it. Should they bring back DA, it needs to be like Eukrasia, meaning less a straight potency use and more of something that adjusts what the move actually does. Example, if they made it so you got Oblation early, it's a straight 10% damage mitigation normally. However, if you DA it, it turns into Dark Mind, giving the 20% magical damage mitigation instead. Using DA with Unleash changes it to Salted Earth. Using DA with Unmend turns it into Abyssal Drain. Etc etc. Meaning DA should be altering moves and possibly be on a stack system.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Dark Arts:
-60 sec recast
-Grants 3 stacks of Dark Arts, 15 sec duration
-2 charges

Actions affected by Dark Arts:
-Syphon Strike = increased mp regen
-Souleater = increased damage, action changed to power slash
-Stalwart Soul = increased damage, reduce recast of abyssal drain (and C&S) by 5 secs
-Unmend = increased enmity, reduce recast plunge by 5 secs

Abilities affected by Dark Arts:
-Dark Mind = increased from 20% to 30% mag reduction
-Abyssal Drain = cure potency increased to 400
-Carve and Spit = Restore additional MP
-Dark Missionary = Increased from 10% to 15% mag reduction

In most scenarios you would use up 2/3 stacks just doing your single target rotation once. Which leaves one stack to use for an ogcd.

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The problem with the system as you've written it though, is that it pits utility against optimization; despite the intent, as long as any of the options contribute to damage and the others do not, most of these options will in fact be avoided with DA active, unless the alternative is overstacking/wasting them, or imminent death.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

The problem with the system as you've written it though, is that it pits utility against optimization; despite the intent, as long as any of the options contribute to damage and the others do not, most of these options will in fact be avoided with DA active, unless the alternative is overstacking/wasting them, or imminent death.

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Yep. It's why I'm heavily against the potency uses of it alone. If DA is to return, it must ONLY be to alter the move into something else, like how Eukrasia changes Prognosis from a heal to a shield heal.

here's what i'd like to see

first off TBN should be purely a CD based defensive ability still proccing edge of shadow (or hell i'd even argue shadowbringer now)

secondly make blood weapon and delirium cost darkside timer to use (15-20seconds per ability) (actually giving it a use and a reason to actually refresh it)

thirdly as a counter balance and to help not change opener too much i would add an ogcd that gives darkside by itself on a relatively long CD so it's usable every say 4 mins basically still allow you to prepull blood weapon and delirium if you so choosed, also allows you to recover after death alot easier

defensively we're fine tbh although i would like C&S to have a decent heal tied to it since they wanna tie it and abyssal drain together

my changes are more so aimed at creating a constant engine for DRK there's always something to do some form of generating and spending resources you spend MP to get blood weapon and delirium up which not only help your guage go up but replenish the MP you spent getting hte darkside then you spend the MP to generate the darkside needed for bloodweapon/delirium leaving the guage more for esteem (which is a whole nother story) and delirium off time cause delirium would still be on a decently long CD (40seconds) and blood weapon being more spammable so to speak (20 second CD so there is some downtime and helps you fill the guage during hte delirium downtimes)

esteem if he's gonna use a preset rotation should grant all beneficial effects to you. that should've been done when it was released (or make him only copy our moves after a slight delay)

they can further improve on this system by adding more spenders that in return give another resource to help you achieve an engine you're still 1-2-3ing but now have something to keep you busy during downtime while still being able to optimize for burst windows that to me is DRKs biggest downfall rn is nothing to do outside of our 1min burst and 2 min burst windows

Honestly just take notes from pvp. TBN having no mp cost. Quietus and bloodspiller restoring HP. But sadly we wont see real change until 7.0

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Originally Posted by Derio

TBN having no mp cost.

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I don't get why people make this out to be some huge deal. Yes, it adds a small learning requirement, but you're basically never going to be capable of fewer than 3 TBN pops per minute of uptime (and with time to spare). Removing that MP cost would make it feel even more finnicky and dependent on boss damage; or, alternatively, you then have to remove DA, removing your ability to shift your overflow MP back into/under raid buffs (granted, that difference is far slighter now that Trick Attack-as-raid-buff has been turned into the 2-min-CD Mug).

And having its procced DA bypass an HP cost on a damaging oGCD is still giving it potency value, identical to the current MP refund. It makes no difference save that now you have to loop healers into your offensive loop.

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Quietus and bloodspiller restoring HP.

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This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't get why people make this out to be some huge deal. Yes, it adds a small learning requirement, but you're basically never going to be capable of fewer than 3 TBN pops per minute of uptime (and with time to spare). Removing that MP cost would make it feel even more finnicky and dependent on boss damage; or, alternatively, you then have to remove DA, removing your ability to shift your overflow MP back into/under raid buffs (granted, that difference is far slighter now that Trick Attack-as-raid-buff has been turned into the 2-min-CD Mug).

And having its procced DA bypass an HP cost on a damaging oGCD is still giving it potency value, identical to the current MP refund. It makes no difference save that now you have to loop healers into your offensive loop.


This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

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TBN already is only used while wall to wall pull or during raidwides/TBs (and on rare occasions use to fit four+ edge of shadows into burst window but that depends on factors) cause if you risk it not popping it's a DPS loss cause that 3k mana is wasted it's why the can apply to another party member is never used outside of like OT shielding MT for TB. with you making it purely a CD based DR like almost every other tanks low CD DR and you now not only benefit when you get it to go off but you're more encouraged to shield others cause if it doesn't pop oh well at least you didn't actively lose DPS it's now DPS neutral with proper usage giving you a DPS increase

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

you now not only benefit when you get it to go off when you get it to go off but you're more encouraged to shield others cause if it doesn't pop oh well

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That is not how balance works.

You do not get up to 4 free Edge/Flood per minute via your defensive at no cost to your potency per minute budget elsewhere.

Just as with Third Eye (save that you'd be making 1840 potency per minute dependent on this, up from Samurai's current 240 ppm), if given the capacity to acquire 4 Dark Arts procs per minute, you then become balanced around that (or, however many DA procs per minute the devs feel is reasonable, which will probably be more than you want to desync TBN timings from defensive use to get more free offensive potency value out of, regardless).

Moreover, not getting a free edge is just as much a loss as not having Edge refunded. It makes no difference; they are identical DPS losses.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

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Isn't 300 potency a tad bit too weak? Why not a 400 potency instead? Paladin's damaging spells have a 400 potency heal, and the only limit is their mana pool.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That is not how balance works.

You do not get up to 4 free Edge/Flood per minute via your defensive at no cost to your potency per minute budget elsewhere.

Just as with Third Eye (save that you'd be making 1840 potency per minute dependent on this, up from Samurai's current 240 ppm), if given the capacity to acquire 4 Dark Arts procs per minute, you then become balanced around that (or, however many DA procs per minute the devs feel is reasonable, which will probably be more than you want to desync TBN timings from defensive use to get more free offensive potency value out of, regardless).

Moreover, not getting a free edge is just as much a loss as not having Edge refunded. It makes no difference; they are identical DPS losses.

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no actually i pretty much only use TBN for extra edges/not overcapping it's not needed at all for defensives which is why you want to push it as a party tool compared to a shield for yourself. also if you're just gonna refund the mana anyways if shield doesn't pop why not just make it free? also you say that they'd balance around it with only potency changes but there's other ways of balancing it simply add 5-10 extra seconds to CD (bringing it more inline with other tanks low CD DRs) or instead of giving the proc outright make it instead restore the MP that would be required for a edge of shadow or hell if that is still considered too strong make it half a edge of shadow MP return. you could get two procs of thge MP gain under buff window cause most buff windows are only 20seconds. also it would give you more reason to actually use edge of shadows wduring downtime knowing you can get the MP back or two procs every 40-50 seconds (30 if you wanna take the 1.5kMP return route instead). which is well worth the trade off of it basically never being a damage loss

when you talk about damage loss damage neutral and damage gain you talk about it from both the worst and best scenario possible like old TBN is damage gain at best (getting those 4+ edges under party buff window) and damage loss at worst (purely cause you're eating the resources necessary for a damaging skill). this TBN would remain DPS neutral at worst (cause you're not eating the reources necessry to do what you would anyways.) and a DPs gain at best (cause you're replenishing a resource that is used for your damage and with some shenanigans depending on the route you take balance wise you can still be hitting 4+ edge of shadows per party buff window)