Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Abyssos healer shortage was never the actual healers fault, it was always a problem that the DPS and the tanks refused to help mitigate anything then blamed the healers when the DOT’s ate people alive

The amount of times in PF I would break my own mitigation plan to apply sacred soil and either illumination or expedient to a tankbuster the tank was supposed to be mitigating alone because they weren’t using mitigation only to have them die then yell at me for not spamming adlo on them was way too much

Exactly the same as DPS who wouldn’t press addle or feint then go “why didn’t you just cast succor”

Mitigation being a team wide effort where failure exclusively punishes the healer has always been an annoying system, sure it’s the healers job to heal but it’s not fun pressing succor 5 times in a row simply because the SAM decided feint wasn’t important because they drifted their tsubame

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I've seen, or rather experienced, both scenarios back in Abyssos.
Both DPS dying to basic raid-wide AoEs because they couldn't be bothered to press their mitigation buttons and dying to boss autos and bleed damage over the course of 5+ seconds despite full mitigation on the buster because the healers thought 1 oGCD was enough.

And I couldn't even blame them, it would've been enough for most of Shadowbringers and Asphodelos, which is pretty much all the savage healing they had experienced thus far. Anecdotal example, in E8S our Scholar didn't need to cast a single GCD shield outside of downtime where they had nothing better to do anyway.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I'm someone who has said that in the past because it's not untrue. Jobs arent balanced around casual content. But healing a dark knight in dungeons isnt exactly rocket surgery either so I guess 'who cares it's casual content' works both ways.

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I mean, it is true. I basically don't even think about what tank I get in dungeons when I heal because it simply doesn't matter. I go through the same healing routine I would use for Dark Knight even if I get a Warrior, sure they don't need the healing but it's not like I'm gonna use those resources on anything else.

That's not to say "who cares it's casual content" is the right response, instead we should ask for dungeons to not be so incredibly braindead that it doesn't make a difference whether you get the "immortal" Warrior or the "wet paper bag" Dark Knight, and then we can look at bringing Warrior's multi-target healing down to acceptable levels.
Because right now you could nerf Bloodwhetting into the ground for dungeons and it still wouldn't change anything.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Maybe I’m too active on too many pointless 14 “argument” channels (here, reddit, YouTube etc) but has anyone noticed that blowback against changing healer design has seemed to shift from ultra casuals who struggle to heal tam Tara deepcroft to higher end raiders who’s answer to any problem in casual design is “we nothing is balanced around casual”

Maybe it’s just my unique experience but I’ve noticed recently that almost everyone has become unified on the idea that bloodwhetting is too strong (though opinions seem to be mixed on if fixing it for the benefit of the healers is worth a nerf to WAR’s) but the main argument against doing anything with healers now seems to be “yeah bloodwhetting too strong but who the hell cares it’s casual content”

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I've definitely seen it. I could understand that from the viewpoint of job design decisions would weigh the input of those people who participate in in more difficult content differently or more heavily where job changes are considered however I don't consider it acceptable that people wave away complaints about the content when we consider that we're talking about content that affects everyone, especially since for some players it will be the only content that they'll experience.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Haven't really noticed such a shift myself, but I don't participate in much discussion outside the forums.

I have noticed though, that in the forums, there's been an increase of people who think the only way to fix healers is to eliminate the healing part of healers by allowing every other job to become self-sufficient so we can focus fully on our damage rotation and not be inconvenienced by other people taking damage, which is a bizarre stance to take.

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I feel like the general community has a very strict, black and white "no nuance" way of thinking. If there is any semblance of responsibility on a job to heal, no matter how infrequently, then it is impossible for that job to have more than 2 or 3 attack buttons, because only one of two outcomes will occur: Either the player playing that job will ignore those healing responsibilities because they're too focused on DPSing and cause the party to wipe, or they will be frustrated every time they have to heal because it will drop their damage or interrupt their 1-2-3 combo (which if you aren't aware is the only way a healer could have more DPS abilities at their disposal because having more DPS tools couldn't possibly look like anything else).

Funny how that way of thinking seem to coincide with how healers are loosely designed as well. Look where have that took us to today.

A plus design. /s

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

anyone noticed that blowback against changing healer design has seemed to shift from ultra casuals who struggle to heal tam Tara deepcroft to higher end raiders who’s answer to any problem in casual design is “we nothing is balanced around casual”

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Well the game is easy for casual healers, because of high party sustain and low incoming damage its hard to fail. For alliance roulettes and similar healing is irrelevant since you can throw bodies at the content via rezzing so can't fail either.

Tank sustain in is not the problem. Healing a good DRK still results in you twiddling your thumbs more often than not. You cannot balance the game around such comically low levels of damage. One tank regen is enough to tell a boss "I'm literally immortal right now". Additionally, the fact that dungeon mob dps is tuned so low that you can wall to wall pull in the first place should call mob damage into question. Pulling each additional pack of mobs should put considerably more strain on a party.

We can nerf tank sustain but it won't fix the problem. We need SE to stop holding player's hands. Let them fail. Let enemies actually hurt enough to threaten a wipe. Until that happens no amount of tank nerfs will fix anything. Party sustain should help ease the healing burden. It shouldn't remove that burden completely.

Obviously Bloodwhetting is an outlier here. There really is no way to balance dungeons around the ability to full heal off of every swing. I like the idea another suggested to revert it to heal based on damage dealt. That's both more balanced and more fun to use. Planning your burst around your healing is just satisfying to pull off.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

Tank sustain in is not the problem. Healing a good DRK still results in you twiddling your thumbs more often than not. You cannot balance the game around such comically low levels of damage. One tank regen is enough to tell a boss "I'm literally immortal right now". Additionally, the fact that dungeon mob dps is tuned so low that you can wall to wall pull in the first place should call mob damage into question. Pulling each additional pack of mobs should put considerably more strain on a party.

We can nerf tank sustain but it won't fix the problem. We need SE to stop holding player's hands. Let them fail. Let enemies actually hurt enough to threaten a wipe. Until that happens no amount of tank nerfs will fix anything. Party sustain should help ease the healing burden. It shouldn't remove that burden completely.

Obviously Bloodwhetting is an outlier here. There really is no way to balance dungeons around the ability to full heal off of every swing. I like the idea another suggested to revert it to heal based on damage dealt. That's both more balanced and more fun to use. Planning your burst around your healing is just satisfying to pull off.

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I don't even think this was intentional: It's a side effect of Duty Support and the fact that compressing the stats also drops the amount of flex they have with tuning damage. Duty Support is what is probably nuking everything into the floor because programming AI around "do i stun this, counter this, or run out of the AOE circle?" kind of situations seems to be a hard thing to do. We can't even kite anymore because they just increased mob speed to insanity level, so things always are just hugging your butt even if you got speed boosts going and are a ranged DPS.

Well, that and to keep people who are long term players playing, MMOs seem to downshift the difficulty so it gets gradually more efficient to do things that are repetitive, because no one wants to spend 30 minutes in a dungeon that they have already done probably 25+ times. You can see this with content not tied to the roulette like Delibrum Reginae. People have to go make a party on a schedule to even do it, and most people are just done with Delibrum.

Also... after playing healer for a while and healing fights that are both long and have a lot of mechs, pressing the same button constantly because you're supposed to have dps output and always be casting is painful.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I don't even think this was intentional: It's a side effect of Duty Support and the fact that compressing the stats also drops the amount of flex they have with tuning damage. Duty Support is what is probably nuking everything into the floor because programming AI around "do i stun this, counter this, or run out of the AOE circle?" kind of situations seems to be a hard thing to do.

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And this is another reason why Duty Support should get a separate version of duties. Because current beep-boop AI bots can only go so far with mechanics. The sheer amount of fun little things that were removed from the dungeons here and there... this is devastating. I am both happy and sad that I got to see dungeons in Shadowbringers before they got homogenized.
Extra fluff about Duty Support:

It is freaking afwul for new player. For one simple reason - if the player dies, the entire party resets the run and goes back to the starting point. This makes no freaking sense! Duty Support made to help new or shy players to get through content, but being in the new duty with no knowledge about the bosses - this is a recipe for disaster. They die again and again to new mechanics, frustration rises.

Why not give the bot healers ability to raise? Or give the player some kind of "reraise" that upgrades through expansions into with more charges and no weakness after raise to reflect how awesome the player character got?

Such a missed opportunity honestly...

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Well, that and to keep people who are long term players playing, MMOs seem to downshift the difficulty so it gets gradually more efficient to do things that are repetitive, because no one wants to spend 30 minutes in a dungeon that they have already done probably 25+ times.

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Strange, because for me the effect is direct opposite. I'd rather chew broken glass than play Expert or Level 90 roulette dungeons. Because they are so incredibly mind numbing.
At least in Leveling or 50/60/70/80 you can pull Duty that will make me rub two braincells together.

There should be a balance between "waste 30 minutes of your time here" and "roll your face over the keyboard for 10 minutes to hear victory fanfare"

Also, Delubrum died because outside of relics it yields next to NO rewards, no job experience, mettle gain is incomparable to Zadnor. Simply not worth the effort.
And the deliberately forced 10 minute queue by devs is hilariously bad at fixing the issue. There are so many other ways to repopulate Delubrum, but they prefered to slap a band aid on it and sit on their hands for the rest of the Endwalker

Everytime the subject of Bloodwhetting is brought up, I recall that one time in very early of 6.0 where I encountered that one SGE in Stigma Dreamscape who gleefully wrote something along the line of “WAR+SGE = Best combo!” in party chat. If only they knew… if only…

If I ever meet that one SGE that I could no longer remember their name again today, I’d like to know what they have in their mind about the button.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Everytime the subject of Bloodwhetting is brought up, I recall that one time in very early of 6.0 where I encountered that one SGE in Stigma Dreamscape who gleefully wrote something along the line of “WAR+SGE = Best combo!” in party chat. If only they knew… if only…

If I ever meet that one SGE that I could no longer remember their name again today, I’d like to know what they have in their mind about the button.

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I remember in week 1 prog of Abyssos, I was SGE in P7S, and I could almost completely ignore the WAR taking the TB, in week 1. Throw Haima on 'em and leave 'em to it, because it + Bloodwhetting was apparently enough to just out-heal the 'exceptionally hard hitting bleed'