I guess it's time

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

SE took standing around in a lobby playing dress up from PSO2. They may have gone a little overboard with it, though.

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LOL damn, beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Even hypothetically if FFXIV is at 500k subs, that is still really healthy for a game like this. Who honestly expects WoW numbers today? It was a right place at the right time scenario. Where is this "Has to be over a million to be considered not doomed." mentality?

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500k is an ok number, nothing special about it.

But if you compare to 2.0, let's say 2.0 had 900k

It's an huge loss, and that's why i keep saying FFXIV has low numbers, it used to have a lot more

I don't know, maybe it's time the devs see what they're doing wrong?

We should look to improve, not remain the same "because of profitable numbers" and the actual numbers keep dropping.

I'm afraid they'll only look into changes when the player base dropped considerably, and the game doesn't have anything worth going back to if you quit, becuse the reasons that made you quit are still there, same formula, same everything.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

500k is an ok number, nothing special about it.

But if you compare to 2.0, let's say 2.0 had 900k

It's an huge loss, and that's why i keep saying FFXIV has low numbers, it used to have a lot more

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"But if you compare to 2.0, let's say it had this number. No one has ever sourced this number, and there's no way the number is actually correct, but let's say it had this number. This number is way bigger than the number that's sort of sourced, so the game is objectively losing a lot of players."

The decline feels even bigger if we say the game only has 200k players and used to have 500 million accounts.





(Disclaimer: I'm well aware that player-generated estimates two months ago put the active playerbase around 640k.)

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

500k is an ok number, nothing special about it.

But if you compare to 2.0, let's say 2.0 had 900k

It's an huge loss, and that's why i keep saying FFXIV has low numbers, it used to have a lot more

I don't know, maybe it's time the devs see what they're doing wrong?

We should look to improve, not remain the same "because of profitable numbers" and the actual numbers keep dropping.

I'm afraid they'll only look into changes when the player base dropped considerably, and the game doesn't have anything worth going back to if you quit, becuse the reasons that made you quit are still there, same formula, same everything.

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MMO's never retain their numbers from launch. If say FFXIV had 900k and now 500k, that is actually completely normal. They usually lose a lot before even the halfway point to the new expansion. You really need to take the time and look at how MMO's work on both a community perspective and a developer's perspective. I won't pretend to know the in's and out's, but you shouldn't pretend that you do. You look at the outside and assume something bad is happening. You have no real data to show this besides speculators and people who say the game is doomed without anything to back it up besides some player theories.

Stop worrying about numbers, just offer suggestions that will help make the game better. Let them worry about numbers. Also, don't use numbers to try to present an argument. If your ideas and suggestions are that good, you won't need it to prove your point.

Even if we were in a hypothetical situation where the game wasn't being profitable due to low player count, I have my doubts they would completely revamp the game again to meet the needs of FFXI players.

Its like no one realizes that numbers do not completely attribute to success and not even SE knows why the numbers are declining. The population of course affects players but it doesn't mean its not successful on the corporate end just because it has a few hundred thousand subs. The cash shop is honestly updating at the same rate if not more so than the game is and people are STILL asking for more stuff, so if people are spending there, it can at least cover the cost of some people unsubbing. Companies dont bank off of how much money they COULD make but rather what is actually MAKING the money. The formula will remain the same until both the subs and the cash shop revenue decrease, then SE will be forced to do something about it, till then one can only hope.

As for people leaving the game, only people can speculate or get explanations from people that actually voice them, but the reasons are too varied. People could be leaving due to family, work, school, other games peaking their interest, and yes lack of interest in the current game. You'll see people leaving for legion next month, maybe not because this game is bad to them but because WoW has something new to offer or the story. I'll admit that even though I felt WoD failed as a whole, most of the story was pretty good (kinda nice to have good voice acting for everything, hint hint). Tossing speculation into the wind based off of unofficial data that could've easily been skewed because of the 96 hour free log in campaigns that SE has been doing as of late dont hold weight for either side.

The question is: Do you really want to play the same (old) game over and over again for the next 10 years? Answer: No one will.

If you want to keep FFXIV successfull, you have to change it. Some things could be radical, but the game must go forward. Keep it fresh, exciting and fun.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Here's a question: if you were given the choice to change only ONE thing about FFXIV, no matter how radical the change would be, what would you decide to alter?

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Hard decision. There are alot of things I would like to change, but those things arent radical enough (like deeper character costumization or no more normal mode raids). Maybe a rework of the current class/combat system:

No fixed classes or jobs.
More like having your weapon, your gear and a fixed amount of skills. You can obtain your skills by learning/buying them. You can also upgrade them by spending points (like PvP). You have the freedom to choose your own personal Limit Break. And you can also choose between traditional tab targeting and a new aim targeting system. You can keep your old job or start creating a new one...

Example: Guardian
- Lance, Shield, Plate-Armour
- Tank- and Heal-Skills
- DPS-LB1 and -LB2, Healer-LB3
- Tab-Targeting System

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The question is: Do you really want to play the same (old) game over and over again for the next 10 years? Answer: No one will.

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I know I'm not the only person here who has played FFXI for more than a decade.

... right? :/

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

500k is an ok number, nothing special about it.

But if you compare to 2.0, let's say 2.0 had 900k

It's an huge loss, and that's why i keep saying FFXIV has low numbers, it used to have a lot more

I don't know, maybe it's time the devs see what they're doing wrong?

We should look to improve, not remain the same "because of profitable numbers" and the actual numbers keep dropping.

I'm afraid they'll only look into changes when the player base dropped considerably, and the game doesn't have anything worth going back to if you quit, becuse the reasons that made you quit are still there, same formula, same everything.

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Then they lose people that like how game is. Changing game to chase a group of players at expense of core base sounds like a bad idea to me.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

The question is: Do you really want to play the same (old) game over and over again for the next 10 years? Answer: No one will.

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If it's a good game that I like, sure. I've just started yet another playthrough of the Mass Effect trilogy, games I've owned for a long time and have played many times. I'm still not sick of them.

So basically what I'm saying is your "answer" is wrong. :D

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

If it's a good game that I like, sure. I've just started yet another playthrough of the Mass Effect trilogy, games I've owned for a long time and have played many times. I'm still not sick of them.

So basically what I'm saying is your "answer" is wrong. :D

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Agree here. Currently playingvSkyrim.

overall players per patch under 200k cleared 3.1 770k active players

as of 3.2 its 660,000 active accounts

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckybanc...f/ff3d0a5d.png

http://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/46515415.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...dated_jan_9th/

Google Translator

Active character 770,000
Among them, the new character becomes 200,000.

Difficult comparison with the previous survey since changed the method of calculating the active character.
Characters that are excluded by put the conditions of the "Mount possession number one or more" of this time until the reference is about 150,000. Most of which was a new character.

It should be noted that, scenario progression determination, here quest reward mount because the decision that even in the previous data of the current conditions it is possible to compare because it is the same.

The 460,000 characters of has progressed to Ishugarudo scenario of the Blue Sky. Last 380,000 from +8 250,000.

New or minute and return who have not progressed to the Blue Sky up to the last time, would the person who came out can afford is like or is promoting a two-character second of the scenario.

Is it clear the Ish Garde release when the main scenario of the Blue Sky is 390,000 characters and the previous 290,000 from +10 250,000.
Last time, because it was about one month after the release, I think own pace of people were many people who did not go to clear.


However, when it comes to the character that is to clear the main scenario of the patch 3.1 this time, to halve the 200,000 characters.
Type-0 lifting of the ban on release and banned equipment is available in patch 3.05 (7/21), as long as this time play, even if the current pause is counted in the number of active character of this time. So, we continue to have to play, this item can be confirmed as 3.1 play status of users who are chasing a scenario.
Because even without advanced to the scenario last almost a play can be content, but will Some people are put off until the 3.2 release before, but still there is a quite an impact because half.
I think long vacant and patch release interval had, would amount that had been suspended in such a high degree of difficulty problem of Kiko Castle Alexander zero expression is there considerable number.


Is not in the table, Mamet-Izeru of the second anniversary of the nascent festival of commemoration minion, the residence is 280,000 characters who have a Mamet-Yuugiri, Mamet-Minfiria, Mamet-thunk Red possession at the time of the last year of the first anniversary of more than 200,000 characters (because the current Minfiria and thunk Red is charging sales, is no longer be a indicator of nascent festival participation of the first anniversary).

So, although there will be some parts that are activated in the release of the expansion pack, you are asked to continue 3.1 or later on the kind of people, whether Yobimodoseru users who had been suspended during the 3.0, per the next 3.25 release survey it will be appreciated by.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

I like that your response has a lot of thought put into it but one thing is missing. Isn't it amateurish to 1) not be willing to push content back in order to make sure its done well and 2) not have multiple projects on hand and decide which to launch when? Lets make one thing clear that some people do not seem to understand, SE isn't poor. They work on a lot of things and make a lot more money than your average mmorpg company since they have a multitude of projects. Even though Blizzard does tend to work on things at a greater length, their problem is that they tend to blow everything a bit too soon, leaving them with drought. Thus the quality over quantity aspect. I'd rather SE put up a PTS and take an extra month or whatever to release something that it good verses releasing content every 3 months like clock work only having half the content being wasted anyway? They honestly waste more money releasing something subpar on time versus delaying it for it to be better. Why? Look at diadem and the potential changes coming in 3.4. They have to waste time cleaning up that failure so its not a complete waste, wanting to make it more structured and establish gathering queues separated from combat queues only for it not to be properly tested again. We are essentially paying them to test their content lol.

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: Does anyone mind restarting this thread with a new and more attractive title, while also taking the list beetle posted so this can spark a more serious discussion?

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Agreed completely here.

Heck, I still regret how quickly ARR was rushed out. I would have happily spent a few more months in 1.23 and seen ARR undermechanics and core gameplay systems looked at in more depth. I honestly think Diadem can even now be fixed, that huge amounts of obsolete content could be easily be made relevant again (no more gimmick-ly than our typical tome grind, for sure), and that these things, while not necessarily immediate or new content (that most players will disparage as being a rehash and ultimately the same stale stuff anyways), would absolutely pay off.

Sorry if I came off as defensive in any of this. I just get annoyed when solutions, especially when not ideas towards the game itself, are treated as absolute. (Not by you, just in general.) PTSs often get treated as panacea when they're far from it. I wanted to put things into perspective so we could look at what might better fit the issue being mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry if I came off as defensive in any of this. I just get annoyed when solutions, especially when not ideas towards the game itself, are treated as absolute. (Not by you, just in general.) PTSs often get treated as panacea when they're far from it. I wanted to put things into perspective so we could look at what might better fit the issue being mentioned.

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Its sad that these things often create sides where there shouldn't be. Devs can't really take threads like these seriously because there isn't really a unified front. Instead of tearing down the ideas people have, probably ask them to explain why they want them. I get some people are perfectly fine with the game as it currently is and that's great for them, but telling people if they dont like it then just take a break only hurts the game (Not you in particular, but people who have throughout the thread).

If people had checked the thread I mentioned before (What about a JPN-NA thoughts corner?), there was a person who was giving some insight as to what the JP community was feeling in regards to the current state of the game.

I'm also sure, since some people have wanted additions to the game even though they said they like the current state, that there is stuff not just from FFXI but other games in general they would like to see. The dev team already proved up to 3.4 that they can pull other things from other final fantasy titles beyond just an event, which can open a flood gate of content that can fit within the confines of this world.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

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People don't mind changes to the game, but the idea of completely changing the game and it's core is what people are not for.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

The question is: Do you really want to play the same (old) game over and over again for the next 10 years? Answer: No one will.

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Pokemon and Monster Hunter. Pokemon is Pokemon and I'll probably play every mainline entry like a bum.

Having a blast with MHX/Generations atm though. Adding slight changes to offer dynamic new playstyles within the weapon classes brings in new depth to the combat system.

Meanwhile in XIV...sleep emotes...look forward to it.

I mean I'm still gonna give Derp Dungeons a go but I'll be honest Monster Hunter is like a separate MMO of it's own.(And has it's own too in Japan onry) And is actually fun. All the time. And I don't have to bitch on a forum and say "shit sux" because it is fine as is.

I've said it before but if they fail spectacularly when 4.0 releases I'll just have to accept I'm not their target audience because bumrushing the story and seeing little content worth doing and just afking at FC house is not how I want to be spending my 15 banana's a month.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Its sad that these things often create sides where there shouldn't be. Devs can't really take threads like these seriously because there isn't really a unified front. Instead of tearing down the ideas people have, probably ask them to explain why they want them. I get some people are perfectly fine with the game as it currently is and that's great for them, but telling people if they dont like it then just take a break only hurts the game (Not you in particular, but people who have throughout the thread).

If people had checked the thread I mentioned before (What about a JPN-NA thoughts corner?), there was a person who was giving some insight as to what the JP community was feeling in regards to the current state of the game.

I'm also sure, since some people have wanted additions to the game even though they said they like the current state, that there is stuff not just from FFXI but other games in general they would like to see. The dev team already proved up to 3.4 that they can pull other things from other final fantasy titles beyond just an event, which can open a flood gate of content that can fit within the confines of this world.

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(Dramatic voice?) Sometimes, I just wish we could have a commonly used second forum, community moderated, that allows us to figure out what matters most to us, pin those issues and sub-issues therein, work in project teams to hash them out before and after peer review, easily track how far different issues how progressed, and actually present that unified front – or better yet, silver platter ideas. Alas...

Sadly my HTML skills are minimal.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

I'm sure there has been a slight decline, but the game is still healthy. In no way, shape or form is it dying.

That said, I think a lot of upper-midcore/hardcore players are having a rough time right now because they're realizing this game might not be for them -- and that's gotta be a tough realization for anyone who has spent so much time on it.

This thread is essentially a handful of people who want the game's core progression to be changed from vertical to horizontal, and that ain't happening. Not now, not at the expansion, not ever.

Yeah, my inner hardcore player would be delighted if the game went more horizontal, but I've still got FFXI for that. Meanwhile, I've got FFXIV as my game that I can keep up with without having to play for several hours per day. From very early on, Yoshi-P made it clear that FFXIV was designed for players like me. Why would SE change the formula now, especially when it's working?

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I am going to say that I am probably in that group that is having a crisis of faith so to speak about my place in this game. I am having enough of one to actually post a bit on the OF when I usually lurk and that is about the extent of my activity here. A few of Yoshi's comments recently have me rattled. The jump potions, his stating that unique stats will not be coming back anytime soon if ever and that 4.0 will pretty much be a rehash of 3.0 which was a rehash of 2.0. I will admit that I am quite a bit bored at times in the game. I have everything at 60, I have all the mounts from Gold Saucer, Kirin. I even started playing my alt again and have her most of the way done too.

I have done a lot of different things and try out new things in each patch. It all boils down to the question that has been nagging me so much lately, "Do I want to spend the next 3 years, doing the same thing over and over?". Which would be chasing the latest tomestone and doing the same raid for 6 months then starting all over again at the end of that period doing the same thing again. They don't have to make it horizontal progression or whatever, just change it up somehow.

Yoshida once talked about the need to amaze, they have not amazed me outside of storytelling, for some time. Another 3 years of the same thing is not something I really want to experience, I may not be here at the end of that and I really want to be in 3 years time. I just need a reason to keep telling myself, it will be worth it and fun to stay.

I want to be amazed again.

There will never be a unified front since different people want different things for the game.
For example, someone posted earlier in this thread that they wanted to get rid of normal mode raiding. For me normal mode raids was one of my favourite additions to Heavensward since it allowed me to play through the raid story as it's released unlike Coil where I didn't get past t9 until unsync became a thing.

In general I don't object to new types of content being added. I'm mostly against the restructuring of the rewards system towards horizontal progression as I don't have any interest in farming multiple sets for one job and enjoy the current pace of ilevel increases.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

People don't mind changes to the game, but the idea of completely changing the game and it's core is what people are not for.

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That's why I think actual communication on the ideas need to be realistically discussed so it shows the positives and negatives to both sides, hopefully resulting in a middle ground of some. I'm sure most people wanting changes are perfectly fine seeing changes actually being made versus getting translated commentary saying the dev team will just follow the same formula.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(Dramatic voice?) Sometimes, I just wish we could have a commonly used second forum, community moderated, that allows us to figure out what matters most to us, pin those issues and sub-issues therein, work in project teams to hash them out before and after peer review, easily track how far different issues how progressed, and actually present that unified front – or better yet, silver platter ideas. Alas...

Sadly my HTML skills are minimal.

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This would be great to have, but even having a more solidified link with the JP community on these issues is a step. I wont say that 100% the devs will respond first hand to them since there is no language barrier, but it does increase the chances, plus the JP community tends to keep their threads 'neater' than ours since we like to make 10+ threads on the same issue. They can post that the NA/EU community has the same thoughts as them to a degree, thus increasing community unity.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

There will never be a unified front since different people want different things for the game.
For example, someone posted earlier in this thread that they wanted to get rid of normal mode raiding. For me normal mode raids was one of my favourite additions to Heavensward since it allowed me to play through the raid story as it's released unlike Coil where I didn't get past t9 until unsync became a thing.

In general I don't object to new types of content being added. I'm mostly against the restructuring of the rewards system towards horizontal progression as I don't have any interest in farming multiple sets for one job and enjoy the current pace of ilevel increases.

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Although I personally dont like having multiple difficulties of the same content, I will agree that getting rid of them at this junction isn't the best option either; however, we do have several minds in this forum so its possible that a middle ground can be achieved if we actually brainstorm rather than dismissing ideas because they dont sound right.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Although I personally dont like having multiple difficulties of the same content, I will agree that getting rid of them at this junction isn't the best option either; however, we do have several minds in this forum so its possible that a middle ground can be achieved if we actually brainstorm rather than dismissing ideas because they dont sound right.

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Maybe make normal and savage completely different content. Like for example Normal could be for enjoying linear content with story and lore. While Savage could be big sandboxes designed for exploring the perils of the zone and collecting loot, story/lore stuff in savage could just be little tidbits scattered around the zone. It would be cool to get free reign inside Alexander.

I'm just going to leave this here.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: Does anyone mind restarting this thread with a new and more attractive title, while also taking the list beetle posted so this can spark a more serious discussion?

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

I've started threads that are basically that... 3 times? And they've fallen into the aether every single time. You say this is what you want, but every time the thread actually pops up it gains no traction whatsoever, while this thread here has refused to die.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Primals:
I'd like to see primals go back to a 3 primals per patch cycle thing.....

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If we're going to keep the "core" and still have increasing ilvls per patch, the primals need to be a part of a bigger picture in order to stay relevant.

Although what youre referring to is way nicer than what we have right now, (I believe youre talking about the system we had for Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit EX) where we had to defeat all 3 bosses to get 3 tokens from them and exchange them for a weapon; in the long run their reward will be obsolete and easily be overlooked by new players.. so if they somehow want to make them stay relevant, they need to add bigger value too them (not just by adding ponies please).

The system they had before involved defeating primals as a necessary step to get your relic, which I thought was fun.

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8-man Raids:
I wouldn't say remove normal entirely....

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I admit it took effort to understand why anyone wouldn't like Normal Mode removed. I understand that it is for players that just want to appreciate the story without going into the trouble of raiding for hours.

The big mistake with Normal Mode is: it was a half-assed version of its intended difficulty-- spoiling some of the detail the real thing has to offer. On top of that they made normal mode relevant at a given time (relevant being highest in ilvl at a time) which made us FARM FOR IT (YES IM MAD ABOUT IT, on top of that they also made it one of the spammable ways to faster get your relic, UGH)

By the time savage came out a lot of my friends were sick of Alex:Gordias. True story.

Fix: 1-man story mode, 4-man story mode, or something like Castrum and Praetorium.

I want Story Mode to have some sort of interaction with the NPCs involved in the story (like Cid was on Castrum), that way I would be more focused in the story (and I would probably actually pay attention to them even if theyre goblins) and NOT the raid itself. Instead, story mode should be story driven and should pave our way into the actual bosses of the intended raid. What does this mean? After doing story mode you can unlock the raid content for every boss you met in the story, and only then they would have the actual mechanic driven boss fight.

This means we get the "tank and spank" a lot of the bosses offered in Castrum and Praetorium (they basically just stood there right? because it was story driven) and then we unlock the raid content after without spoiling any mechanics, and any stage gimmicks, of the actual raid fight.

As for the reverse sync I don't think its too hard to multiply an enemies stat to match a certain level.. It would need testing but its totally doable.

My post is getting too long. By no means do I want to enforce my ideas to the game.. I'm just throwing out what I think is best for it. I enjoyed my stay in this game and is happy for the people still having fun with it.

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Originally Posted by Fricca

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Or we can go by a better structure. Completely get rid of story mode or at best make it a 3rd option. Unfortunately developers claim they only have resources for two modes. So if we are under that assumption it should be like this:

Even patch: Normal Mode(FCoB difficulty) > Savage Mode(SCoB Savage difficulty)
Odd patch: Alternate means to get gear to help make Normal Mode easier on checks.
Next even patch: As said above, but the previous tier raids, add an echo buff and gimp the mechanics of normal mode to let less experienced players get through it. For Savage, keep it's ilvl synced to the max you could during that period to retain it's difficulty always even going patches in and it's titles and gear(glamour wise) still mean something.

It is just baffling the way SE thinks raid structure is right now is fine. The content needs to be made first for the intended audience in mind, which is midcore/hardcore, and if you have the resources/time, then sure add a 3rd story mode. They should really look at restructuring how raids are set up for 4.0.

I'd be fine with story mode raids being solo instances or tank and spanks with no gear. Though of course in the latter case SE would have to stick it in a tome roulette or something to keep queues alive. I also like the idea of more interaction with the story npcs in those instances (as as aside I really like the instances we got with mini npc parties in Heavensward).

I'd also be okay with waiting for nerfs and echo on the condition that SE actually adjusted every fight.
The problem with Coil was they left certain fights as walls with a ton of PUG unfriendly instant wipe mechanics with t5 and t9 causing the most problems. I can't speak for the difficulty of Final Coil since I never reached it synced but if I remember right very few adjustments were made to it overall.

I liked what SE did with Brute Justice in A8 in giving the Savage version an extra phase not seen in normal. I think gameplay focused bonuses for harder modes like that are great and hopefully not too expensive for SE to create.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Then they lose people that like how game is. Changing game to chase a group of players at expense of core base sounds like a bad idea to me.

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How is it adding more end-game raids and remove weekly tome limit at the expense of anyone?

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

How is it adding more end-game raids and remove weekly tome limit at the expense of anyone?

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More raids means more development time/resources. Which means more infrequent updates. Weekly lockouts so people are not getting the better stuff immediately and not burning themselves out.

So it is either have more raids with longer waiting periods and increased price of tomestone gear to compensate the unlock, or can do the way it is now.

I honestly feel there should be something exclusive to doing savage gear wise since less and less people appear to be doing it. Maybe releasing a set bonus to the gear so it pushes people to want to do savage more. A significant item level increase to savage gear wouldn't hurt either, especially if we go with Velhart's idea, since the item levels seem so close that its not even worth doing for some people.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

How is it adding more end-game raids and remove weekly tome limit at the expense of anyone?

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Keep in mind, "Raids" are not free to produce. They require new mechanics, new art/design work, story content/cutscenes, and more. They are not a cheap thing, in fact they're probably one of the most expensive parts of the game. They can't just "Produce More Raids" without either a significant increase in resources, a significant increase in time between patches, or possibly removing other aspects of the game. Even that last option doesn't really work, since you can't just move "non-raid" development resources to "raid development". Believe it or not, there is no magic "game resources" that you can move to any part of a project you like. Artists cannot suddenly produce battle content. Battle content designers can't suddenly switch to making cutscenes. Even programmers, which can be more universal, usually need a significant amount of time to adjust to a new team/type of content. If they could produce "more raids and more dungeons and more content" within the same time frame and cost, they would.

On story mode raids, while I understand some distaste for them, keep in mind they have a very large audience right now. Story mode raids exist so that less-skilled or more casually oriented players can enjoy both the story and most of the mechanics. Casual players do not just want to see the cutscenes. They want to experience the fights in a less stressful environment. Story mode raids are brilliant in that they take extremely expensive to produce content that is normally made only for a small portion of the playerbase and open it up to players of all skill levels. The "raiding" community is almost always a very small portion of the community that requires incredibly expensive content to satisfy, so the "story mode" allows more players to use the content. I totally understand the frustration over it, and the desire for more different raids. Just keep in mind that there is far more participation in "Story mode" raids than "Savage Raids", and you'd need a very good reason to change that significantly. If it were possible they could have three difficulties, but they've already stated that it would cost too many resources.

That said, it would make a lot of sense to include more unique phases and mechanics in the savage mode of the raids. I also believe the rewards for it need to be adjusted and changed. They need to at least have unique models for equipment, though I'd like to see them have some special stats or at least a higher ilvel jump. I just think removing Story mode raids entirely would be a huge mistake.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

More raids means more development time/resources. Which means more infrequent updates. Weekly lockouts so people are not getting the better stuff immediately and not burning themselves out.

So it is either have more raids with longer waiting periods and increased price of tomestone gear to compensate the unlock, or can do the way it is now.

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They still spend resources on raids, they're just doing it wrong.

Also the resources excuse is too used by now, first was the small team excuse, now it's the money excuse, i see excuses everywhere and zero improvements.

Maybe it's time SE invests more in the game.

I'm fine with more raids. Only if they have a different formula to them. If all it's gonna be is a boss gauntlet with position based mechanics and burn the boss dummy parse phases with mobs thrown in between each one barring the last then they can just stop with them. Would like something different instead of another pretty hallway.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

That said, it would make a lot of sense to include more unique phases and mechanics in the savage mode of the raids. I also believe the rewards for it need to be adjusted and changed. They need to at least have unique models for equipment, though I'd like to see them have some special stats or at least a higher ilvel jump. I just think removing Story mode raids entirely would be a huge mistake.

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I think Savage does that for the most part. Two extra panels to deal with in AS5, jails to deal with in AS7, and a whole new form at the end of AS8. Making the gear dyable in Savage to me is fine. My issue is on a gear design standpoint is while the gear does not look bad necessarily, it does nothing to stand out from other gear. For FCoB, that Bahamut gear. You knew without a doubt that was raiding gear. It's design was over the top, but you never seen something like it. Design team needs to use that as inspiration for future Savage gear.

For story mode, it is understandable why it is there. The argument I give is that very same content should not exist in the expense of the content's intended audience, which is midcore/hardcore. Which was awfully balanced in 3.0, and rocky in 3.2. The influence to raid has dropped since there isn't really a working point towards it. At best you have trials. Not to mention, the story mode content becomes dead really quick once people get what they want from there. Which is basically less than a month. Getting instant satisfaction as opposed to my idea above that lasts the long run and balances out the content on all three levels of play. Midcore audience seems to be getting hit the hardest in SE's approach to content.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

They still spend resources on raids, they're just doing it wrong.

Also the resources excuse is too used by now, first was the small team excuse, now it's the money excuse, i see excuses everywhere and zero improvements.

Maybe it's time SE invests more in the game.

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Read what Claymore65 said. He explained very well why there is no such thing as "magic resources". Please understand how development works.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

More raids means more development time/resources. Which means more infrequent updates. Weekly lockouts so people are not getting the better stuff immediately and not burning themselves out.

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Honestly infrequent updates would not be a problem if they were designed to last longer than they are and have a place in future content, rather than being mostly throw-away by the time the next cycle rolls in I mean in regards to WoW when it was at it's high point, wotlk patches were 5+ months inbetween, yet there was enough to do inbetween that kept me interested.

You'd have daily hubs that;d change over time, a variety of dungeons that kept me interested (especially in regards to the gearing process; heroic dungeon drops were actually relevant for intro end game, rather than being outdone by justice point gear, or our current equivalent of eso tomes)... Here, ever since 2.5, I'd be done with the novelty of the content as early as 5 days (or 2 days in the case of 3.1).

Mind you WoW had daily lock outs for dungeon and weekly lock outs for currency. Between getting a heroic dungeon drop, getting mats for an engineer to craft my Nesingwary 4000 as my entry level raid weapon, the gearing process kept me a lot more interested than having to rely on weekly tomestones to get my gear...which honestly could be capped in 2-4 days if I was farming EX primals or both 60/ex roulettes. As new raids were introduced, the previous tier raid gear was still relevant (and to a lesser extent, required for number checks) to the current one, and updates to their "tomestone" wouild not completely invalidate the previous tier of raids. I was still using Naxxramas pieces going into Ulduar; there was no better option from the tomestone vendors, but it's not as I needed a full set of naxxramas to be able to perform in ulduar, not unless it was hard mode. It wasn't until Cataclysm they started to decline it by having less content to do at end game (since most of the design of the expansion was redoing the old world), likewise with MoP and WoD is an entire mess of it's own.

Funny that SE just gave us an awesome 24-man raid, and people are complaining about "throw-away" content.

I'm not too crazy about the leveling dungeons in this patch, but dang. People need to chiiiiiiilllllllll.

This game has so many dungeons and raids that people enjoy doing. It is too bad though that SE doesn't install true difficulty modes with the various raids to make them more accessible to people who can't play enough to be in statics.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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FFXIV could definitely benefit from looking at how WoW structures end game content. I won't ever argue that. On the point of fatigue between patches, it was still very much a thing in WoW. I would argue it was actually worse in WoW. Blizzard knew people wouldn't leave and would wait for a patch no matter how long people complained. It is something they have to be more careful with recently, but during the WoTLK era, that was very much a thing. Get 5-7 months into the patch and people come out saying the game is dead and doomed. Then the patch comes and everyone forgets about it till the 5-7 months come again. It is basically a patch cycle.

More of the point is, you can't beat content fatigue in a MMO no matter how you design it.

the content in FFXIV last next to nothing , i did the new 2 dungeons once... after that outside the armor that drops for glamour i have no reason to go there , lore? for what? an alt class i will play once in a blue moon?

i only log to raid ,i tried to level crafting and gathering but ugh , this 2 disciples push me out of the game even more than any other thing , gathering isnt that bad , but being there at the right time , and the minigame isnt enjoyable , crafting? only thinking about it make me want to uninstall FFXIV , i guess different ppl like different things...but how ppl can "enjoy" crafting is beyond me...

uhmm PVP ...lawl ok next PVE ....dungeons like i said meaningless , 24 man raids 1 time a week... 8 man ? meh , once a week if that... trials once killed and u get the weapon u want , done...

content live in FFXIV is what? 1 week top? and patches come every 3 months...we need content that can be fun or last more than 1 month... Savage is the only 1 and because is hard , and even then once u have it on farm.... (we clear the first 3 turns in less than 1h...so once we have a8s on farm is log in on reset day clear and log out only to come back next week) feels like first coil to me :(

so who is happy? raiders arent , midcore raiders dont even exist because there is no content for them , casuals , do what? repeat the same 2 dungeons? , crafters dunno , but i see ppl talking about macros and avoiding the minigame with that so why exist in the 1 place? to annoy new crafters?

/rant off

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the content in FFXIV last next to nothing , i did the new 2 dungeons once... after that outside the armor that drops for glamour i have no reason to go there , lore? for what? an alt class i will play once in a blue moon?

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This kind of goes back to how I think some people are having an identity crisis re: their places in this game.

FFXIV was redesigned to be a game that didn't require being treated like a second job. The concept was something that busy people could sit down and play during small amounts of free time and still get things done. Mission accomplished. That's why so many people like myself have been able to find so much enjoyment in Eorzea.

On the other hand, people who want that MMORPG experience where you can spend hours per day working toward various goals are starting to realize this game will never provide that... and that's frustrating for them.

Honestly the game feels like a job because of the sheer repetitiveness of the content; I felt like I was only doing the roulette a for a time out of obligation to get lore (which I don't even need or want because I'm not raiding anymore). There's nothing interesting to do in those smal bursts

What this game needs is a bigger reason to do the "work." My enjoyment of the game has honestly gone way up over the past couple of months, and really the only difference was that a group of us in my FC started a "busy adults weekly content static." We're staying out of savage, but we're all working toward beating the primals that were just way too difficult in PUGs. Took has five weeks (two months considering we missed a few weeks) to beat Thordan Ex. Just having that static to look forward to gives much more purpose to grinding out those tomes.

I've said repeatedly that this game's biggest problem is having an endgame scene that's out of touch with how the rest of the game is designed. If SE made true endgame more accessible to people who didn't have statics then grinding tomes would make much more sense in the "day in the life of" an Eorzean.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

FFXIV was redesigned to be a game that didn't require being treated like a second job. The concept was something that busy people could sit down and play during small amounts of free time and still get things done. Mission accomplished. That's why so many people like myself have been able to find so much enjoyment in Eorzea.

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It's the complete opposite for me.
It feels like a job, everything is a chore, I have to meet quota's for the week otherwise ill fall behind. I've had to run weeping city about 20 times this week just to get gear for this week, which I still haven't got yet. I can't do stuff when I want to because im constantly on a clock.

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It feels like a job, everything is a chore, I have to meet quota's for the week otherwise ill fall behind. I've had to run weeping city about 20 times this week just to get gear for this week, which I still haven't got yet.

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This right here is kind of my point.

I honestly don't think the developers ever intended for players to want to run the same piece of content 20 times per week. I think they made it more for people like me who usually just do it once or twice per week. And if I don't get a piece of gear from it, well /shrug. I cap lores anyway, so gear drops from 24-man raids are essentially just bonuses.

So this game clearly needs some new types of content that can make players like you happy. But SE should spend its resources on content that's accessible by people who don't have time to commit to statics -- that way, most of the game's playerbase would be happy! And I really believe that's what the Diadem was intended to do, except SE just completely dropped the ball.