Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

I completely disagree with several of your observations.

Being able to level all crafts is awesome. Because making my own stuff is a hell of a lot more fun than buying it from the AH. Also, I'd rather have a "pointless" economy and have fun, than have the kind of economy you want. Because I've come to find that the definition of a "good economy" for the people that complain about the current one is an economy where only a select few players are making gil with crafting while the rest of us are farming trash mobs all day to make gil.

I doubt that not being able to craft the highest iLvl has much to do with RMT. I think it has a lot more to do with Yoshi-P thinking that the best raid gear should be obtained through raiding. I don't think he likes crafting, so he doesn't want raid gear to require it. Because the whole RMT thing can be easily avoided just by implementing an abjuration system like the one in FFXI, where the best gear required a crafted piece and a non-tradable endgame mob drop.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I completely disagree with several of your observations. Being able to level all crafts is awesome. Because making my own stuff is a hell of a lot more fun than buying it from the AH. Also, I'd rather have a "pointless" economy and have fun, than have the kind of economy you want. Because I've come to find that the definition of a "good economy" for the people that complain about the current one is an economy where only a select few players are making gil with crafting while the rest of us are farming trash mobs all day to make gil.

I doubt that not being able to craft the highest iLvl has much to do with RMT. I think it has a lot more to do with Yoshi-P thinking that the best raid gear should be obtained through raiding. I don't think he likes crafting, so he doesn't want raid gear to require it. Because the whole RMT thing can be easily avoided just by implementing an abjuration system like the one in FFXI, where the best gear required a crafted piece and a non-tradable endgame mob drop.

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My point is there is nothing worth buying in this game. Therefore there is no point in getting gil. Therefore a lot of time that could have been spend crafting (or gathering) for gil in order to buy stuff you want is non-existent. You know.. an economy: An economy or economic system consists of the production, distribution or trade, and consumption of limited goods and services.

I'm not saying there isn't an upside to making everything ourself. Simply put, the lack of a meaningful economy means we have less to do.

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Originally Posted by Docj

My point is there is nothing worth buying in this game. Therefore there is no point in getting gil. Therefore a lot of time that could have been spend crafting (or gathering) for gil in order to buy stuff you want is non-existent. You know.. an economy: An economy or economic system consists of the production, distribution or trade, and consumption of limited goods and services.

I'm not saying there isn't an upside to making everything ourself. Simply put, the lack of a meaningful economy means we have less to do.

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And yet people continue to craft/buy/sell stuff in FFXIV every single day. Your problem is that there's too much competition so you can't set prices as you see fit.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

And yet people continue to craft/buy/sell stuff in FFXIV every single day. Your problem is that there's too much competition so you can't set prices as you see fit.

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Yeah that's what I want, to be able to set prices to make even more pointless gil.]
]
I'm sitting in a fully furnished medium house, with 7mil on hand and nothing to spend it on except glamour. I have all classes at 50 and already reached my lockouts for the week. That's my problem.. so why don't you stfu or say something constructive.. oh wait, let me guess, I should be collecting minions to pass my time now.. plz.

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Originally Posted by Docj

I'm sitting in a fully furnished medium house, with 7mil on hand and nothing to spend it on except glamour. I have all classes at 50 and already reached my lockouts for the week. That's my problem.. so why don't you stfu or say something constructive.. oh wait, let me guess, I should be collecting minions to pass my time now.. plz.

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Yes, and I have 15 mil on me. No house and only my Paladin is still at 50. Are you really trying to argue that I'll suddenly run out of things to do after I buy a house and get my Paladin to 50.

The only thing you provided was a non-argument. FFXI had what you want but I assure you that there were also people there sitting on mountains of gil with nothing to spend it on.

Hell, if you only have a Medium house quit your whining and start working your little behind off making gil for a Large house like a real pro.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Yes, and I have 15 mil on me. No house and only my Paladin is still at 50. Are you really trying to argue that I'll suddenly run out of things to do after I buy a house and get my Paladin to 50.
The only thing you provided was a non-argument. FFXI had what you want but I assure you that there were also people there sitting on mountains of gil with nothing to spend it on.

Hell, if you only have a Medium house quit your whining and start working your little behind off making gil for a Large house like a real pro.

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How can you honestly argue with the simple point I have made? My whole point was: "lack of a meaningful economy means we have less to do". Last I checked a real economy is something you must participate in to survive and thrive. The current game economy is completely optional; and has no impact on clearing battle content.

This is a thread about endgame being boring and the various reasons we feel there isn't enough to do. I'm fairly certain that if I could craft i100 gear or better right now, I would be procuring the materials and doing that instead of posting in forums. I have several jobs that are stuck at i90 because of the weekly limits on gear we can get. I feel forced to only play my highest iLv because i90 is now outdated. If I could keep my other jobs up to date with crafted gear I bought/crafted, I could spend more time playing those jobs as well.

Because your simple point isn't a point at all.

You're trying to make a direct correlation between what you call a "meaningless" economy and "having less to do". But, like I pointed out already, FFXI had what you wanted yet it also had players sitting on mountains of gil without anything to spend it on too.

If the game had crafted i110 gear, AND the materials weren't hidden behind lockouts, you'd have the exact same problem after you crafted all your stuff. But even FFXI had pretty severe lockouts for materials (way worse than the lockouts we currently have on obtaining gear).

I'm all for making crafting have a bigger role in endgame, which is why I believe that the best gear should have an endgame drop component and a crafting component. But your argument that forcing players to only have one crafting class leveled would lead to "having more stuff to do" is simply ridiculous.

I find it hilarious that some of OP's points pertain precisely to the player argument happening right here, in real time.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Because your simple point isn't a point at all.

You're trying to make a direct correlation between what you call a "meaningless" economy and "having less to do". But, like I pointed out already, FFXI had what you wanted yet it also had players sitting on mountains of gil without anything to spend it on too.

If the game had crafted i110 gear, AND the materials weren't hidden behind lockouts, you'd have the exact same problem after you crafted all your stuff. But even FFXI had pretty severe lockouts for materials (way worse than the lockouts we currently have on obtaining gear).

I'm all for making crafting have a bigger role in endgame, which is why I believe that the best gear should have an endgame drop component and a crafting component. But your argument that forcing players to only have one crafting class leveled would lead to "having more stuff to do" is simply ridiculous.

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I don't understand why you keep referring to FFxi; it was also eventually ruined by RMT too, but anyway. The idea of only one craft maxed would be similar to desynth, you could be jack of many or ace of a few. The reason this would lead to more to do, is because your particular services could be called upon by FC mates or just random people. You could actually have a service that someone needs you for. FC mates would have their own specialty and as a community you guys would have ability to make everything. At the same time this would allowcpeople to feel as though their work on a craft served more then selfish purposes.

The funny part is, in reality I don't want crafting to actually have any usefulness at all. That allows RMT to thrive and players can then pay to win. My original point was that (in a perfect scenario) if crafting was able to be more useful, we would spend more time doing it. Simple and true.

I bring up FFXI because it has exactly the system you want but doesn't solve the problem you have.

Forcing specializations on players may lead you to having more stuff to do on, lets say, Goldsmith, but at the cost of removing all the stuff you had to do on the other 7 crafts. The net result of "how much stuff you had to do" would likely be the same.

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Originally Posted by Docj

"...snip all posts snip..."

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Man, you actually revived my trust into this forum, don't continue to respond to the "fluffy community", you had arguments but it's an exit-less discuss since they actually enjoy this vanity-only economy and after all it's their rights too, everyone enjoy the game at his/her level.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I doubt that not being able to craft the highest iLvl has much to do with RMT. I think it has a lot more to do with Yoshi-P thinking that the best raid gear should be obtained through raiding

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Duh, I lost brain cells for a sec, ah well O.O let's focus again.
Man in which sort of cavern have you lived from? No offenses but this is one of the worst / wrong and logic-less sentance I had to read on a forum since ages about crafting, end-game contents and BIS equipements.***


Of course it had to do something with rmt ! did you ever heard something about controling the market? spending a whole day/weeks/months to buy one or multiple things and then putting the said crafting material back into market board? ^^; in a world where crafting would provide useful equipements for raiders, Nael would drop crafting materials to create powerful armors/weapons and... RMT would get the control of this market ^^, bumping the prices set by legit players to incredible numbers and so : filling their rmt wallets (on a side note, this is a very common practice since years on any mmos).

***note for myself I'm so getting reported by Gilthas right now (please don't ; ; look at my cute lalafel, it have feeling!... sometimes).

:rolleyes:

If you actually read my posts you'd see that I have already provided a solution that would greatly lesson the problem of RMT: make the best gear require a crafted component and a non-tradable component that drops from endgame content. A system that SE used in FFXI.

Another thing that would greatly lesson the RMT problem would be to have the materials for the crafting component be easily accessible (tomestone items).

Yet SE chooses to not use any of these solutions.

Which is why I think it's more likely that the biggest reason to not make craftable gear comparable with endgame dungeon drops is because Yoshi-P wants the endgame players to be able to completely ignore the market.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

:rolleyes:

If you actually read my posts you'd see that I have already provided a solution that would greatly lesson the problem of RMT: make the best gear require a crafted component and a non-tradable component that drops from endgame content. A system that SE used in FFXI.

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Actually I support your idea but the resulted crafted item would have to be non-tradable too or it would just end into RMT's hands once again.
Which lead into the same problem again, there is no way to put very valuable and tradable items (best BIS by weapons/armors) in a game's economy market without risking to see it falling into RMT's business :/
Damn you RMTs.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

So, relying on teammates to free you from chaos is not "team rope jumping"?

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The term team jump rope is so vague it's worthless. Get mad about something worthwhile for once. If you can't handle Ramuh I can't imagine you'll be able to do fights with even more random elements.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

The term team jump rope is so vague it's worthless. Get mad about something worthwhile for once. If you can't handle Ramuh I can't imagine you'll be able to do fights with even more random elements.

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Honestly I'd just prefer random elements that didn't punish you with instant death....

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Honestly I'd just prefer random elements that didn't punish you with instant death....

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Why not? It adds tension. No instant death would make fights a bit too easy and we have plenty of those on 4 players dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Edli

Why not? It adds tension. No instant death would make fights a bit too easy and we have plenty of those on 4 players dungeons.

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I never said not to have instant death mechanics. Having every other attack lead to instant death however is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I never said not to have instant death mechanics. Having every other attack lead to instant death however is ridiculous.

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Well in the case of Ramuh for example only chaos is instant death.

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Originally Posted by Edli

Well in the case of Ramuh for example only chaos is instant death.

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If tanks (really anyone) don't have their special lovely orb buff, Shock Strike is instant death.

And that is an entirely non-random element. So that doesn't lend anything to your case.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

If tanks don't have their special lovely orb buff, Shock Strike is instant death.

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That still doesn't make it "every other attack". So you have one or two instant death mechanisms, big deal.

Imagine tanks wouldn't die without the buff, you wouldn't need two tanks and the whole fight would be ridiculously easy. If chaos wasn't instant death, that whole mechanic of prioritizing who wakes whom would be pointless. It's exactly those two instant death mechanics that actually make the whole fight interesting.

Team jump rope is why everyone I know in RL that had this game cancelled their accounts. Team jump rope requires no ability to adapt or think. It could be done by a bot program.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

And that is an entirely non-random element. So that doesn't lend anything to your case.

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Um what? The direction of that was at instant death mechanics, not random element mechanics. My original comment was that I would be fine with more random element mechanics as long as they were not instant death. I never said they were overly present. He in turn said it added tension. I said having an abundance of instant death would be ridiculous. He then brought up instant death in Ramuh and I added one to his list. Not sure what you are trying to get at here.

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Originally Posted by filene

Team jump rope is why everyone I know in RL that had this game cancelled their accounts. Team jump rope requires no ability to adapt or think. It could be done by a bot program.

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One negative thing, yes, but not the only reason why players are leaving...
RNG and grinding are 2 other points very high ranked when asking players who had left.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...24/242/836.jpg

I agree on all parts. Especially the part about the dungeons pre-lv50 that tested the skill of the players and dungeons that have instant-kill mechanics.

This game at lv50 is now a battle of whether can you live through these instant-kill mechanics or not.

God have mercy on your soul if your internet connection is "bad". It's not because of Square-Enix, no. It's not like having the servers for NA/EU based in eastern Canada isn't making keeping a stable connection difficult or anything.

I thought this post was going to address an important issue, but I was disappointed. This game isn't about combat, but rather story and the story is the most important and significant aspect of the game. The story is the very reason you're tasked with the dragon slaying the game offers and if you forget that and are not immersed you'll start feeling like this game matters less and less. That being said this game has an excellent story.

To be more relevant with the OP I'll add this: That the way encounters are, are perfectly acceptable to me, instead of the encounters, we should add dynamic activities and puzzles. By dynamic, I mean to say that with each clear the dungeon puzzles will shift in such a way to make it impossible to look up the answers online or in a guide book. Maybe a maze mechanic, or more dungeon traps. That sort of thing would add much needed excitement into any mmorpg.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Fights would definitely be more interesting if it wasn't completely scripted.

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Agreed.

For those who missed it, here's a gem from the "GIFs for those FFXIV moments" thread.

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

Sums up pretty much every boss fight in this game.
http://www.horsenation.com/wp-conten...-hula-hoop.gif

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Originally Posted by Mikita

"GIFs for those FFXIV moments"

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5/5
A+++
Fast delivery would read post again!

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Originally Posted by Wishangel

This game isn't about combat, but rather story and the story is the most important and significant aspect of the game.

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What? No. Saying that story and not gameplay is the most important aspect of some game is a strange thing to say. When people talk about 1.0 and ARR story never gets mentioned. 1.0 presented story better than ARR yet it failed because ultimately gameplay is what matters in a game. That is why it failed and that is what ARR improved even at the expense of cutscene and voice acting quality.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like the fights in this game. Branding team rope as something negative in a coop game is something I don't get. Yes the success in a coop game comes from the performance of the whole party not from the performance of an individual. That has been the case for every multiplayer game.

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Originally Posted by Edli

What? No. Saying that story and not gameplay is the most important aspect of some game is a strange thing to say. When people talk about 1.0 and ARR story never gets mentioned. 1.0 presented story better than ARR yet it failed because ultimately gameplay is what matters in a game. That is why it failed and that is what ARR improved even at the expense of cutscene and voice acting quality.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like the fights in this game. Branding team rope as something negative in a coop game is something I don't get. Yes the success in a coop game comes from the performance of the whole party not from the performance of an individual. That has been the case for every multiplayer game.

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while teamplay is important. if 1 or 2 people fail in your party there is no way to save the fight, this is something I dislike immensly here, especially when useing the duty finder. The comparison the OP made was: ok if you have 2-3 people failing an EX primal fight in 14 there was no way for you to win the fight no matter how much individual effort you put in. This is extremly frustrating for people that can deal with the mechanics, but cant get through the fights because they get dragged down by 2-3 other people in the Duty finder. Whereas compared to other MMOs or in this case FFXI you could still save the fight from failing if you were: skilled, had the gear and had the 2-3 key jobs covered, half your alliance/party could wipe to a fight, but you still had the chance to recover by different means, if the remaining people had the skill/gear/and knowledge to hold the mob/fight it while the rest was recovering. This isnt possible here, because the mechanics make a recover nearly impossible in most cases, which in the end renders echo buffs useless.

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Originally Posted by Damane

while teamplay is important. if 1 or 2 people fail in your party there is no way to save the fight, this is something I dislike immensly here, especially when useing the duty finder. The comparison the OP made was: ok if you have 2-3 people failing an EX primal fight in 14 there was no way for you to win the fight no matter how much individual effort you put in. This is extremly frustrating for people that can deal with the mechanics, but cant get through the fights because they get dragged down by 2-3 other people in the Duty finder. Whereas compared to other MMOs or in this case FFXI you could still save the fight from failing if you were: skilled, had the gear and had the 2-3 key jobs covered, half your alliance/party could wipe to a fight, but you still had the chance to recover by different means, if the remaining people had the skill/gear/and knowledge to hold the mob/fight it while the rest was recovering. This isnt possible here, because the mechanics make a recover nearly impossible in most cases, which in the end renders echo buffs useless.

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Well if you lost 2 healer or tanks then it would have been wipe in any game. The problem I'm seeing is now DPS are just as much responsible the groups success. And let's be clear, if one or two die it isn't insta wipe it's one or two continually die over and over that is insta wipe. Also the reference to FFXI doesn't work be if you compare alliance to alliance then you don't see a lot of wipes in CT/ST unless they are completely clueless.

11 had great 6-8 man content.

Limbus, salvage, assaults, meebles etc

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Originally Posted by Damane

ok if you have 2-3 people failing an EX primal fight in 14 there was no way for you to win the fight no matter how much individual effort you put in.

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2-3 people failing? That's 1/3 of the whole party, of course the party should fail.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well if you lost 2 healer or tanks then it would have been wipe in any game. The problem I'm seeing is now DPS are just as much responsible the groups success. And let's be clear, if one or two die it isn't insta wipe it's one or two continually die over and over that is insta wipe. Also the reference to FFXI doesn't work be if you compare alliance to alliance then you don't see a lot of wipes in CT/ST unless they are completely clueless.

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you are misinformed, even if your tank or healer dies in FFXI, you can still recover. Hybrid jobs can cover alot of ground if your healer is dead and recovering, and melees are the usual tanks in FFXI, even if your designated tank dies, a melee or in some cases a mage can take the spot and tank stuff for some time until the rest recovers.

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Originally Posted by Edli

2-3 people failing? That's 1/3 of the whole party, of course the party should fail.

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why should it? if 1/2 or 2/3 of the PT is badass i dont see why they should be hammered with a fail, just because mechanics dont alow for a recovery or progression through the fight. Its all about covering your weakspots in a PT. This is frankly not possible in FFXIV, where as in 11 you can do that, you can cover your PT weakspots with dedicated people that have the excellent gear/skill/knowledge. In that sense even if 2-3 of your friends arent a top notch player you can still take them with you, because you can cover the ground by your hardcore people. I still play FFXI, and we have people that dont have the gear/skill on the same playing lvl as our hardcore members, but we can do raids/events with them, because we can cover their weakspots. This isnt possible in 14.

This makes fights that much more interesting is if you can recover from an almost wipe.

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Originally Posted by Edli

2-3 people failing? That's 1/3 of the whole party, of course the party should fail.

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Two would be 1/4th of your party. This would also turn around to how the party size restriction can lead to problems like this, but you can't add more players either because of the 8-member enforcement, and the nature of the fight mechanics making it unfeasible to add more players anyway. You might not see it as a bad thing persay (and I don't either, to an extent), but it just further enforces people playing with a small collective group and essentially locking out others who can't get into or find one)

There's also the problem that if the tank dies, the party dies stemming from the dps (or anyone else in the party) being unable to tank for even a second and no contingency plan to do so (especially the case if the fight has a mechanic that keeps the OT occupied at all times, such as adds or stacking debuffs). Sure the DRG has keen flurry (which is next to goddamn useless because PLDs and WARs cant cross into it), but chances are, he (and any other dps) will still get one shot'd to an auto attack.


Being able to recover with losing 1/2 members shouldn't be possible under most circumstances. I mean it shouldn't sentence the entire party to the wipe when the boss is down to like 5% or so, but if half your party is dead (out of eight), it's essentially a carry at that point. But like OP has mentioned, the mechanic-driven nature of the fight discourages from having 1 or 2 people messing up that it will lead to a wipe, and as mentioned above, make you bring the same people in over and over just so you don't risk having a new person be unfamiliar/unexperienced to the mechanics and wipe the entire raid. This sort of thing allows for no lee-way or room for compromise (such as outgearing or echo in the case of T5)

For the record I disagree with the OP. Mechanics is the way to go, so long as dps/heal checks are added for appropriate challenge. But mechanics should by and large drive the fight. For the most part, SE has done well with this.

Take primals for instance. Even if you execute flawlessly, you will lose automatically if you dont meet a dps threshold. In some primal fights its an auto-loss if tank doesnt meet an hp threshold, or the healer doesnt meet a heal threshold. In other words, skill/ilvl absolutely matters in these fights. Its not as simple as memorize and win.

Now could there be more challenging dps/gear/heal checks? Sure. But they are just checks..phases if you will. When they become the driving force of an encounter then its simply a faceroll. Not exactly fun or challenging.

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Originally Posted by Damane

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This makes fights that much more interesting is if you can recover from an almost wipe.

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But you then run into the problem of having people who will just get carried around, not really improving themselves and stay a dead weight... but still manage to pass the hardest end game raids and get the stuff they want, even if they're just mostly lying on the ground.
You then won't be able to tell who is "good" and who can't pass certain gameplay mechanics by themselves.

At least, the "team rope jumping" lessen that effect.
If you see a full High Allagan dude walking around, you know that, this player, has at least a certain level of skill and teamplay.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Take primals for instance. Even if you execute flawlessly, you will lose automatically if you dont meet a dps threshold. In some primal fights its an auto-loss if tank doesnt meet an hp threshold, or the healer doesnt meet a heal threshold. In other words, skill/ilvl absolutely matters in these fights. Its not as simple as memorize and win.

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DPS checks, heal checks, tank checks are secondary. you can have the best geared tank/DPS/healer, if they cant dodge for shit because of different reasons (not knowledge of the fight/lag/whatever else) you have lost, period. Gear plays a role, but its rather on the 3. place. What matters more is: 1. mechanics, 2. job knowledge/ability rotation/combo rotation after that gear ties in as 3. however mechanics make it impossible to recover in almost any case.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But you then run into the problem of having people who will just get carried around, not really improving themselves and stay a dead weight... but still manage to pass the hardest end game raids and get the stuff they want, even if they're just mostly lying on the ground.
You then won't be able to tell who is "good" and who can't pass certain gameplay mechanics by themselves.

At least, the "team rope jumping" lessen that effect.
If you see a full High Allagan dude walking around, you know that, this player, has at least a certain level of skill and teamplay.

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Oh I am not advocating to make things be done really by everyone or that you can carry everyone through the "current" highest endgame, by all means not. but for example stuff that has an "echo" buff should be steamrolled. This is not the case in 14 because mechanics still one shot people no matter what gear your party has equiped, in that essence the "Echo" fails because of mechanics. That is clearly a flaw in design/nerfing the content.

The problem is even in EX primal battles you cant take 2-3 friends with you that play the game occasionally. Some of that even applies to some hardmode battles. There should be a possibility that you can do relevant story driven "olde" fights with just 4 very good people, so you can let friends join in that are behind or need the clear or whatever.

I am totally fine if they design the current highest endgame content for 8 people partys for the hardcore people, but once you roll with the "echo" buff/nerf, adjust the mechanics so 4 very good geared people can clear the content so they can take friends with them if they wanted. This is what the Dev team failed to adress in alot of Trial battles, because the mechanics wont let you handle it differently then with 8 people. New players have almost no hope to advancing in FF14, at some point they hit a brick wall midway through they just cant climb over due to various reasons: lack of people doign it, difficulty wasnt adjusted correctly so people dont bother with it etc. etc. Those people will just turn away and unsub after some time.



Lets take for an example Delve 1.0 in FFXI:
- this event was originally designed for 18 people
- when it was released your ally had to have the best equiped or close to excellent equipment
- your ally had to apply the different job roles/pt roles perfectly on point
- only the hardcore could clear it at first

lets take a look at delve 1.0 after 6 months:
- the Dev team added skill+ on ilvl items so accuracy and attack wasnt much an issue anymore
- the dev team adjusted mob HP according to PT size. if you enter it with 6 people or less the mobs/NMs would have less HP then if you would enter with 18 people.
- various mainstream gear releases in between those 6 months made it easy to get properly geared for it np
- it was now possible to clear delve with a PT of 6 people and you could even take 2-3 friends along side of you if you wanted to get them the clear without much trouble

lets take a look at delve 1.0 after 9 months:
- various new gear releases and job adjustments have made it possible that you can 3-4 man delve 1.0