This is the world I live in. I had three bullies in school, the first had his stomach pierced by accident late at night around a construction site and almost died from blood loss, the second had her hair burnt, the third fell of his motorcycle and shattered the bones in his arm, the one he used to put me against the wall. These were just the ones who caused me systematic problems so something had to change when they refuse to change themselves. Seeing these events as random would be quite foolish, though it is possible. The same randomness happened to the teachers who were obstructing students' paths to success for years. This doesn't really fit the definition of randomness, does it? Of course, I am not the only cause, I am one of the many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Life being random is something I have trouble comprehending and accepting. Life is as random as the people you can meet in DF and the people you can meet in DF are far from actually being random. If you are playing in EU world you can't get matched with someone playing in the NA or JP servers. Same with life, there are borders, not really well defined and known to us so out of ignorance, not knowing the precise cause of why exactly this person experienced event X instead of B, humans use shortcuts to explain things they don't understand.
I am not really anti-social. I am anti-whateverhappenstome. I don't suck things up or as you said it "chalk it up" when something that I don't like happens. Maybe it's one of the reasons I don't view life as a random chain of events.Quote:
That said that mindset seems far darker and anti social then anything I have said or done.
As for the kicking, sharing your standards is the first step towards building a better experience for yourself. Theoretically speaking you would have to kick less and less the more you share your standards with people. And then there is the opposite thing where you would have to kick more and more people as the game grows and so too the people who don't meet your standards. This is why I called it a dysfunction. You say that you are kicking people because they are ruining your fun but in the end, what you are practically doing is ruining your own fun because your actions lead you towards encountering more people who would ruin your fun. Your actions don't align with your goal. They negatively impact you the most thus you are wrecking yourself. This is my chain of thought.
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07-30-2021, 05:58 PMRoeshel
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07-31-2021, 12:15 AMRonduwil
I'm confused at how you managed to turn a response to this statement:
Into a response to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
No one ever said anything in support of AFKing. They said that there's no need to dignify a request for bigger pulls with a response. There's a big difference there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
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07-31-2021, 01:22 AMAwhaIf that is your world so be it, I just strongly disagree cause if that was the cause that things are not random then I legitimately have to put all the blame on my parents for the fact I had four surgeries on my brain before I even got to middle school due to cancer, and I will be lucky if I get past my 30's due to the cancer coming back. I still think that sense of well they had it coming really only holds water to people that have not really experienced personal suffering to themselves outside of their own control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
Cause going into that mindset also opens up a door I rather not go down cause if the outcome of an individual is based around how the collective perception of another then we are getting into an area does free will exist, cause one can commit an action they truly feel is good but if that action is viewed as a negative by the collective and they just collective put it out into the universe that x person has done bad let is punish them. Even by my standards of being anti social that is a rather dark concept.
Granted laws work that way, but honestly if what you are saying is true and nothing is random then I must place all the blame for my childhood illness and the fact I will most likely not have a normal life expectancy due to their collective actions. This is why I say many people who feel that way either have experienced great personal suffering no fault of their own or not but want some explanation that helps them cope with whatever situation they are going through or they generally looking for some explanation to events in life that sometimes just do not an explanation.
Either way I do not think it is safe to place such a view even if it were how things worked as universal standard cause I am sure just like laws many negative actions go left unpunished. To me this is just as bad as living ones life based around the concept that your collective good and bad actions will either grant you placement to happy afterlife or miserable afterlife.
Or maybe a better way to put it is I do not think so much of myself or that I am important that the fact someone does something harmful to me is grounds for a negative action to happen to them, nor would I ever wish it. That is why I say even by my standards this is insanely anti social cause sure I am anti social and I dislike interacting with most people but generally from what I am understanding your concept does require one to want pay back or some negative action to happen to the person that wronged them, but for whatever reason are unwilling or able to do it themselves so they take some credit in a sense of seeking some form of gratification over the misfortune of another.
Also if this is the way the world worked or functioned as some universal truth shouldn't their be a degree of consistency? Across the board isn't your own life experience to small of a sample size to make it a reasonable truth? Cause as you mentioned isn't this just you using this to explain things that sometimes just cannot be explained.
Though that said sharing my standards would mean lowering them cause if I shared them and the person did not meet them I would kick them. So for me to not kick them I would have to lower them which then puts me into a position where I am no longer getting the most enjoyment out of the action, which then begs the question why am I doing the action if I am no longer enjoying it.
In the end playing with someone that does not meet my standards would ruin my fun, I do not mind waiting for a replacement or proceeding through the dungeon undermanned. Your premise of me hurting my own enjoyment is still contingent on me being inconvenienced by the action of kicking someone. To me it is a neutral action. Sure my standards increase my chances of running into people that do not meet them but on the same token by having my higher standards when I do run into in a group that meets them I know overall I am more likely to enjoy playing the game with them and in the future can look to them to minimize my negative random chance encounters.
We have fostered a discord server around such "try hards" this way. So collectively my standards may lead to a greater overall enjoyment across the board cause now we have a discord group were we hang and even play other games together. -
07-31-2021, 03:52 AMJijifliThere's quite a few here, actually, and that's just in this thread. I've had it enough times in group content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
But, I can poke a moment into the lack of response situation too. I of course, can only speak of experience here, but usually when someone doesn't respond to someone saying something, it usually is worse than a no. It's not that these guys are on ps4 and can't respond in a timely manner, because from my own experience of "I'll assume your silence is consent," before the ToS changing anyways making giving advice without permission bannable, daring to actually help has usually resulted in some... nasty players.
I specifically remember one, and while this was just a map party, I saw a BLM that was very much struggling. He was randomly doing blizzard 3 and fire 3, randomly transposing, random single target cold flaring, there wasn't any pattern within the mess. I asked if he wanted some help, and he of course left me on read, so I chose to between the spins in the portal give him advice, on single target, aoe, when to use either, etc. I tried to be clear and helpful.
What was my reward for that? Oh he could type now all right, beginning to verbally harass me in party chat. Know what could have avoided my "wrath" that was helpful advice? Telling me no. But instead now he's going at me about how horrible of a person I am and should die of cancer and such. And even after kicking him, he proceeded to continue in whisper, even waiting for me to finish portals to continue the ramblings.
I've encountered this guy multiple times since. Map circles end up small sometimes like that, it's always fun. I wouldn't say his gameplay was acceptable, I wouldn't say his attitude was acceptable. And yet for the time he was there, he was making just as much result as I was, and that's pretty frustrating. -
07-31-2021, 04:10 AMAwha
I once suggested that freeze spam and keeping thunder 2 up in lower level content was okay to do in larger pulls. Mans roasted me for asking him to be an ice man. Funnily enough we were from the same server and tried to get NN on me and the amount of people that defended his play and his actions of calling me out baffled me. It even caused a kick war in NN.
Maybe my tone was not great did not say things like you suck or you are doing it wrong but I did not ask for permission to offer them help but alas I should not have to ask in fear of getting made fun of for offering advice to make a run smoother. -
07-31-2021, 04:13 AMFoxyAreku
This game doesn't require even the smallest amount of competency outside of extreme/savage anymore, so there will always be people who just don't care. I don't think there's a lot they can do about it at this point, just a side effect of them dumbing everything down since ShB launch.
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07-31-2021, 04:23 AMRonduwilThen you should have quoted those instead of quoting the guy who was responding to someone who was frustrated that the tanks weren't pulling enough mobs to suit their preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
As for the BLM you were talking about, I have to question how much attention you were able to pay what you were doing if you were so busy watching what he was doing. Was your group wiping? If not, then you were already getting your reward without the need to waste everyone's time by picking a fight over someone's suboptimal rotation. What was your reward for giving unsolicited advice? None, because the duty roulette content is not designed with that in mind. Your reward for carrying this guy through the duty roulette comes in the form of tomestones and (potentially) commendations. If your effort really goes so far above and beyond the others', then someone in the party is bound to notice and throw a commendation your way.
You're saying that "he was making as much result" as you were, but given that you also claimed to have successfully kicked him from a run, that's clearly not the case. If you progress into extreme, savage, and ultimate fights, I'm sure that your advice will be highly valued and appreciated. That's where you need to go if you want to be rewarded for that. Alternately, you can create a player guide and submit it to a web site or a resource like The Balance Discord server. I'm sure that you have plenty of valuable insight to offer. You just need to pick the right time and place to offer it. -
07-31-2021, 04:52 AMJijifliI quoted that because they stated player standards. If I should mention an exact part from square, that actively notes onto that, it's arguable by completing ignoring a player that you might negative impact their experience, which is also a ToS violation. ... I swear everything in the vague ruling can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
As I said, this one wasn't specifically duty finder. Square didn't match me with them, they joined my party. I said it was maps, and I get that snoozy ezpz content that I already have managed to see enough wipes in (Seriously...). That's why the kick was easy, and possible, I didn't have to ask group permission on if a guy doing... Fun math, assuming 100% uptime in doing it, 168 potency per cast, which is less than a jolt mage, for output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
And the example of this person was to show how this usually goes. Was he on the higher end? Yes, not every person is going to tell me I should die of cancer for daring to mention my main class's abilities. But there's usually a very negative response, and it always seems to be after they first completely ignored me. If you don't want my advice, tell me, straight up, and then I'll at least know not to try vs it just being a ps4 player.
If I want to bring up some higher stories, since you mention...
I can mention Ruby EX's where healers told me off for asking tanks to take ads west and east so south is safe and lets me and other casters (including these healers) cast. I could talk about the SoS ex's where my partner straight refuses to do the partner mechanics, wiping the party, and how it's my fault for my class choice being BLM. I could talk about doing E2S when I tried to get into raiding, with monk specifically, and how asking for the boss to not spin, and for a melee position for mechanics meant I was just being an elitist parsing jerkwad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
But, if we can get back to the main topic, where this was brought up specifically because of players who go into DR WHO CANNOT BE KICKED FROM THE DUTY and literally go suicide afk, then we can. <3 If I must I can direct you to the main post, since I can't quote properly. -
07-31-2021, 11:14 AMTaleraRistainYou said in an earlier post that we have to "teach newbies they can go past their limits" or whatever it was. Isn't it basic respect to ask someone if they want advice or direction first? You talked about not coddling people like children but you're treating them like children trying to decide things for them. It sounds like you're just putting your unsolicited and potentially unwanted commentary out there and then getting mad when people don't acknowledge it. They don't owe you anything and especially not when you didn't respect them in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
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07-31-2021, 11:24 AMTaleraRistainOkay, the things he's saying here are NOT okay. Just wanna say that first. However, he doesn't HAVE to tell you no. That's the flaw in your logic. What also could have avoided your "wrath" of helpful advice was YOU not trying to put yourself in a position of superiority and criticizing (even if it was helpful and constructive) unless he openly agreed to it first. You took any choice he had of wanting instruction out of his hands and just started finding flaws in what he was doing in group chat. Of course he is not going to respond well to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli