I don't understand people who think another melee dps is preposterous. I know we have a lot, but they are popular so square will probably keep adding them. It seems like people only think about future jobs that "make sense", but are using criteria that has been proven false by the time Stormblood came out. Sure it "made sense" that Heavensward had a tank, healer, and rdps, but with only two dps jobs for Stormblood, and 1 dps and 1 tank for Shadowbringers, it shows that the devs will only work on something they have a feel for a concept, not that something players think is "owed".
Its the same with weapons too to a degree. While I don't think a "gun and sword" job is likely in the future, people going on about how a new job would never use a similar weapon to another is wrong, seeing how many jobs weapons are swords. It would just mean the "base" weapon would be different, but overlap is still possible, seeing how DRK's can get giant katanas without being SAMs or PLDs having axe models that aren't WARs. I mean WHM and BLM basically use the same type of weapon, there isn't much difference between a "cane" and "staff", its just that they make different models.
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06-19-2020, 03:29 AMHank_Hotspur
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06-19-2020, 12:06 PMEdwinLiDon't forget RDM basically has a Staff but it is also a sword as we see it casting he basically turn the rapier into a staff by placing the Orb on the bottom hilt and holding it as a Staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank_Hotspur
Another issue I tend to see with arguements of denying possible jobs is that it must already exists in previous "Final Fantasy".
This "requirement" is not true as we know previous FF game does introduce their own unique Jobs originally to that specific FF game until future FF game picks them up and Yoshi-P did say back in 2.0 that he does want to introduce a FF14 Unique Job one day that never originally existed in previous FF games to be a original of FF14 after introducing some already existing jobs from past FF games similar to how Gunblade Job was a original to FF8 and how Judge was a original to FF tactics Advance until future FF games pick them up.
Considering we are right at the door step of Season 1 storyline ending around the expect time of 6.0 to 6.3 (Zodiark and Ascians finally going to be defeat for good and no longer be the focus of the storyline) and the beginning of Season 2 storyline for 7.0, I say it is certainly a decent time to start introducing a FF14 unique job never seen in past FF games.
I think you're putting too much expect restrictions on what can and cannot be a New Job for FF14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
While yes past new jobs have already existed in past FF games it was not always the case for certain jobs in past FF games. A decent amount of them had to start out as a original for specific FF game to create their identity in the FF series.
For example, Judge was introduced in FFT Advance and the Gunblade Job only came into existance for FF series because of FF8. Then there is Noctis Job which is a master of all weapon types through Phantom Weapons. A decent amount of jobs from past FF games had to be a FF game original and create their own lore for that job that will eventually carry over into future FF games when they wanted to use those jobs.
Yoshi-P also did say back in 2.0 he wanted to one day create a FF14 original Job as well but after going through a decent amount of already existing jobs into FF14.
Gunbreaker argument is not a good example of a Sword/Gun job because the Squall Gunblade is not designed to function as a range gun weapon with melee combat abilities but pure close range attacking weapon that causes massive explosions when it hits a enemy. It is more compared to being a Sword/Grenade Launcher than a Sword/Gun. Garlean Gunblades on the other had is more designed to be a Sword/Gun combo but that is exclusive to NPCs until farther notice. -
06-19-2020, 12:19 PMMirronTulaxia1. Adding another melee DPS is unlikely, but still possible. Adding ten new Melee DPS is pretty darn unlikely though. People keep acting like we have tons and tons of jobs just waiting in the sidelines when it's likely to slow down pretty fast from here on out, presuming the game even has a ton of time left. It's a pretty old game, and XI stopped getting new jobs around ten years after release, with a number around what we have as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank_Hotspur
2. Stormblood and Shadowbringers both continued to balance the overall numbers across the five roles while avoiding doubling up on jobs added in the last expansion (Healer, Tank, RDPS -> MDPS, CDPS -> Tank, RDPS respectively for the expansions, as you can see no role appears in one and then the one right after), so I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make there is.
3. White Mage and Black Mage are Staff and Rod. Cane is Blue Mage. Otherwise I agree that people put a bit too much stock in how "different" a weapon has to be. We have a surplus of swords, multiple sticks, and realistically any weapon we could get at this point is most likely at least somewhat similar to an existing one (barring perhaps a DoM weapon, which has the advantage of not having to be a weapon).
4. That said, I don't see a gun and sword job being likely at all. You'd have better luck hoping for a Lightning from XIII inspired MDPS than a "gun/sword Assassin" which I feel comfortable going out on a limb and saying it won't happen.
1. Yoshi-P already did introduce a new job. It's called "Astrologian". To say nothing of Scholar, Summoner, Gunbreaker, likely others that are basically made almost whole cloth for this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
2. No one is saying it's an absolute requirement that it previously existed in an FF. But when there are numerous jobs people want to see then it's certainly going to be important to keep that in mind. Most FFs add a couple new jobs, and XIV already has done that.
3. You're welcome to keep your hope for it, but it's a forlorn one in the end. -
06-19-2020, 12:32 PMEdwinLiAstrologian did exist before FF14 being called Astrologer in FF tactics and was Orran's unique job with his signature skill being Celestial Stasis. Orran is the original Astrologian Job character and the jobs origin in FF series.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
Of course Celestial Stasis is Astrologian's LB3 in FF14 as it is Orran's most powerful skill.
The choice of tarot cards for Astrologian most like came from FF8 Orran since he was a psychic that modified Tarot cards in FF8. -
06-19-2020, 12:45 PMHank_Hotspur
The Scholar has been around since FF3 and the Summoner is a pretty famous job from the series, being not only a jobs in the games where you can choose, but the basis for characters like Rydia, Eiko, Garnet, and Yuna. Even if you criteria is "Jobs in Final Fantasy MMOs" both Summoner and Scholar were in FFXI, so I don't know why you listed them.
Gunbreaker is basically the greatest hits from all the moves from Squall and Seifer from FF8 with some stuff from Lightning here and there. -
06-19-2020, 01:32 PMMirronTulaxia1. A singular ability does not make a job. Astrologian is pretty much made up whole cloth.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
2. I... have no idea what you're talking about with VIII. Edit: Oh, you're... talking about a super tiny obscure cameo as the justification? Given we know that Astrologian's cards originally started as an attempt to make some sort of mixing system that's not remotely accurate. So you're back to "one skill = a job" which, again, is pretty absurd.
1. I listed them because while they have the name they're basically invented whole cloth. Which is why I... quite literally said "basically made almost whole cloth". The part where they aren't is that they do have a name previously used, but... that's really about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank_Hotspur
2. Squall/Seifer/Lightning are not jobs, they're characters. Gunbreaker is a new job, no matter which way you slice it. -
06-19-2020, 02:16 PMEdwinLiI think your idea on what can be a consider a New Job to FF series or not differs from mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
I define the Job by their history in FF games regardless of what skills they once had or had not as a lot of jobs did not have their well known skill identity until a certain point in FF series but they did start out with their name and first character to use that Job regardless of lacking the skills we know the jobs have today.
For example, Astrologian skills in FF14 is new to it but the history of it goes back to Orran as he was the first character to have the Astrologer/Astrologian Job and they even use his siganture skill being Celestial Stasis as the Astrologian's LB3. By design Astrologian job seems to be based around Orrian in FFT and his FF8 version with his Tarot Cards then after they designed the Tarot card mechanic and skill theme around that in FF14 since back when Astrologer was first introduced its only signature skill was Celestial Stasis and the other skills were Focus, Rush, Stone, and Salve which are skills already used by other jobs or never planned to be used in FF14.
Gunbreaker Job is still a job but was unique to Squall when first introduced in FF8. It was basically a nameless job before FF14 that people just called "the Gunblade Job" until FF14 gave it a name in Shadowbringer. Most skill we see in Gunbreaker has a influence by skills that both Squall and Seifer had back in FF8 mixed in with some new additions being the Light barrier ammo for protection as the Tank defense function.
Red Mage, as a major example that took time to get its well know identity for Dual Casting as it took until FFV to obtain its Dual Cast identity. Before it was just a Hybrid Job that can use both Black and White Magic with a sword. -
06-19-2020, 06:42 PMMirronTulaxia
Your stance, plainly put, reeks of bias really. You don't want Astrologian, Gunbreaker, or anything else to count as a new job because you see that as somehow diminishing "Assassin's" non-existent chances. Yes, multiple jobs took a bit of time to get to a more solidified role. No, that does not mean that Astrologian in any meaningful way is an old job. When you can point to the bulk of its moveset and show how it ties in to Oran from FFT then you would have an argument. Show me Benefic, Malefic, Synastry, so on and so forth. You can't. I can do that with the bulk of the jobs in this game, the ones who can't? Basically the ones that I'm saying were made up whole cloth for this game. You can look at the history of White Mage and show where most of its skillset might have come from. XIV has made new jobs. Plain and simple. Beyond the scope of changing things so it fits into a new system. If you define a job by a name and nothing else then your stance for what constitutes a job is extremely shallow, and lacking in critical reasoning. When you call Astrologian an old job? That's what you're doing.
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06-19-2020, 08:34 PMCetek14
I don't understand argument that "it needs to exist in any FF game in order to be added as a job". For example Machinist - Mechanic or Gunner job exists in previous FF games, but FFXIV version is unique (in a negative way, from my point of view). Machinist does constant sideflips while blasting the heat, instead of "classic" use of a gun.
So "Modern Assassin" is just a variation of Assassin, so in my opinion it can be introduced without problems. But i believe it won't be soon, FFXIV still lacks some basic jobs like Spellsword, or previously mentioned Gunner. -
06-19-2020, 09:01 PMSeraphorIt is one of the boxes that a job needs to tick. Not all boxes need to be ticked, but at least some do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cetek14
This 'Modern Assassin' job also uses weapons that other jobs already use.
People like to say "but we already have multiple sword jobs" but the fact is each job uses a completely different type of bladed weapon that we like to call 'swords'. In truth, a Katana is not a sword, it is a Katana. And that's the thing, this 'Modern Assassin' doesn't just have a 'sword' or a bladed weapon, it has a goddamn Katana! The exact same type of 'sword' as Samurai, so you can't even make the 'other jobs have swords' argument. This would be like making another job that uses a Astrolabe or another job that uses a Gunblade.
So that's one box that 'Modern Assassin' fails on.
Next is a unique job identity. From what I can tell, 'Modern Assassin' steps on the toes of Samurai, Ninja and Machinist all at once. It doesn't really bring anything new to the table, rather it combines three different jobs into one. What is the lore? What makes it worth combining these three jobs together exactly?
While this one is a bit more 'personal opinion', I really can't see it ticking this box either. Frankly, it strikes me as something that should be in a Persona game, not a Final Fantasy with a high fantasy setting like XIV.
Finally, unique job mechanics. What would make this job, and specifically a job that uses a gun and a sword, play in such a different and unique way that another concept with different, more fitting lore, and weapons that aren't already taken, couldn't do just as well?
'Modern Assassin' doesn't measure up to any of the metrics that they use for choosing new jobs. If i felt it did meet the requirements of even just one, I'd let it go by without a comment.
As for Spellsword and Gunner, these are also already taken.
Red Mage has cannibalised the 'Spellsword/Rune Fencer' concept by way of having multiple skills taken from the XI Rune Fencer job, and an enchanted melee combo.
That's not to say other parts of the 'Spellsword' concept couldn't find a home in a new job, perhaps something like a 'Mystic Knight' from Thavnair that uses Maces instead of swords. But it wouldn't be a Rapier wielding, blade enchanter.
Likewise Machinist covers Gunner in every conceivable way. If there's another unique mechanic you can think of for 'Gunner' then it can likely be used for any other ranged weapon just as easily, like a Crossbow, which would make it more unique than an alternate version of Machinist. Which by the way, isn't new to XIV as you say, Machinist has been a job in the Ivalice games since they started, predominantly as the one and only gun job, and it didn't even have other machines then, they came from VI's Edgar. So 'Machinist' is literally FF's answer to 'Gunner' in every way.
You say the game is missing these 'basic jobs', but they are missing specifically because they are too basic. It's the same reason we don't have Thief or Archer as 'jobs'. Thief doesn't have enough unique identity to make it a full job in FFXIV. It worked in past games because all jobs needed in those games was one unique skill. That's why it was amalgamated into Ninja.
Same with Archer, shooting arrows isn't enough on its own, so it was bundled in with Bard, because both their weapons use 'strings' with a similar aesthetic.
Astrologian too, combines Astrologer, Gambler and Time Mage. Although I'm sure they could have come up with a full job concept for Time Mage as a DPS, Astro as a healer probably needed more going for it so they took parts from Time Mage, and after all, Orran's Astrologer was basically a special Time Mage, like how 'Magus' is typically a special Black Mage.
Going a bit less obvious now, we have Warrior, who combines classic Warrior with Berserker and Viking.
Plus Scholar, which uses the namesake of a job from FFIII, but is essentially an Orator with a fairy as a pet.
All of the concepts that went into these jobs, were not enough to stand on their own, so they found homes in job combinations.