RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

But it's also old content. Warrior was the only tank able to solo Titan Extreme in 3.x, SCH at 50 could solo an ARR A rank.

If you do raid RDM then tell me what nerfing Vercure would actually do to it performance-wise. When do you use vercure in any of the raids?

im personally not talking just about vercure but bout the whole cls design - Rdm is just "the" cls everybody can feel great with no skill, no complexity, no punishment, no positionals, much forgiveness, high dps even if you faceroll your keyboard. NO cls was ever so independent before not even the examples you are trying to bring up. Solo War Titan, Solo Sch Titan, Solo SMN Titan are around since forever the difference is those player actually got SKILL and it wasn't the norm - RDM is norm and be honest what does RDM need for performance? Now don't say skill....

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Originally Posted by Neela

im personally not talking just about vercure but bout the whole cls design - Rdm is just "the" cls everybody can feel great with no skill

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Keyword is "feel". Not everyone who picks up the job is good at it.

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no complexity,

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There's a light amount of complexity. When should I use CaC/Displace, will it hurt/kill me or my party if I do it and break position with the rest of the party; when to use swiftcast as cheap mobile or use it as a free 300pot; should I prioritize double bolden finishers by going to 100/100 or 100/99, should I just burn manafy on CD, should I save it for later in the phase, will my combos be interrupted, will I get my verholy/verflare off in time if I start now...

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no punishment

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Oh crap I accidentally started a cast other than verflare/verholy. Entire combo is dead now. Oh crap verholy/verflare/redoublement/zwercchau wore off before I could get to it. Whole combo's whiffed. Oh shoot, impact/verstone/verfire wore off midcast, killing my ABC and interrupting my flow. Shoot, people are dying and healers are off swift, I have to interrupt my entire damage cycle to pick people up.

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no positionals,

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Name me one other caster that has positionals.

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much forgiveness,

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There is a good deal of forgiveness, I'll admit, but it only forgives so much before you're just bad.

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high dps even if you faceroll your keyboard.

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This is just blatantly wrong. You have middling dps if you just faceroll the keyboard. And yes I know you exaggerate, but so do I here; if all you're doing is basic stuff with no added thought, your dps will be passable (for an expert roulette). You have high-average dps if you're good. Black Mages and Samurai, comparatively, have great-high levels of dps.

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NO cls was ever so independent before not even the examples you are trying to bring up. Solo War Titan, Solo Sch Titan, Solo SMN Titan are around since forever the difference is those player actually got SKILL and it wasn't the norm - RDM is norm and be honest what does RDM need for performance? Now don't say skill....

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Okay, so my challenge to you: go solo PotD to 200, then come back and tell me there was no skill involved. Upload some of your prog raids to FFLogs so we can all see how good of a Red Mage you are in those fights. Should be simple enough since there's "no skill involved" and RDM soloing PotD can be considered "the norm". While you're at it, go solo Ravana EX or Bismarck EX, record and upload to youtube, then come back. That would be the equivalent of soloing Titan EX as a 3.x warrior.

EDIT: To add: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42&dataset=10

The bottom 10th RDM are 5th ranked on V1S

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=43&dataset=10

4th on V2S

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=44&dataset=10

Dead last on V3S

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=45&dataset=10

5th Ranked for ExDeath

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=45&dataset=10

6th Ranked for Neo Exdeath.

The worst Red Mages are still beaten by quite a few people. You cannot just pick up RDM and be the best person around.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Should be simple enough since there's "no skill involved" and RDM soloing PotD can be considered "the norm".

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you are mixing stuff up here - high dps and the best utility for solo content without any backdrops is norm if you are running around as Rdm. never said the potd achievement would be norm.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You cannot just pick up RDM and be the best person around.

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uh sure you can – if i see 700+ rdms, 120+ blm and <50 smn fflog uploads alone for the last savage tier – rdm really have a hard time hm? I can't understand that people still try to defend Rdms current status... it's not cause rdm is soooooo cool... its cause of the cls design and the effort for effect point. cmn you know what its all about.


edit: not that i mind but the last 4 topics with fflogs-links were deleted completely if you wanna argue a bit more with me you should post less of them ^^

So you'll solo to floor 200 of PotD then? Also no comment on the actual numerical results looking at how performance on the lowest percentile of each fight is? Popularity =/= ease of use, and while ease of use can be a factor it's not the sole one.

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Originally Posted by Neela

you are mixing stuff up here - high dps and the best utility for solo content without any backdrops is norm if you are running around as Rdm. never said the potd achievement would be norm.

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You can't shift the goalposts here. Your problem from the first post was you emphasizing the fact that RDM is one of the jobs that currently can solo PotD to 200.

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it's not cause rdm is soooooo cool... its cause of the cls design and the effort for effect point. cmn you know what its all about.

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It's not at all because of class effort for effect. Red Mage is middle tier dps at best. They're taken as a security blanket, their raise is why they're taken; nothing to do with "it's simple".

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edit: not that i mind but the last 4 topics with fflogs-links were deleted completely if you wanna argue a bit more with me you should post less of them ^^

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I don't know what the last four fflogs-linked topics were but every one I've seen them in has been fine.

Besides, it's useless to even argue if we can't bring solid numbers into this. Otherwise we're just talking conjecture and getting nowhere at all.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

we're just talking conjecture and getting nowhere at all.

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honestly i lost interest in this chat since i read your arguments for Rdms "punishing" & "complexity" - you can't be serious bout them. the whole discussion is getting nowhere since the beginning cause you put more effort in bashing me and remix statements which I've never said the way you are referring them - instead of seeing through what Im trying to say, so yeah let's quit here ^^

goodness, if you don't like the class, don't play it. simple. let's move on.

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Originally Posted by RWBYrose

let's move on.

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although its not about liking or disliking the cls – thats what I said, lets move on ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

the whole discussion is getting nowhere since the beginning cause you put more effort in bashing me and remix statements which I've never said the way you are referring them - instead of seeing through what Im trying to say, so yeah let's quit here. ^^

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Where did I bash you? I apologize if I did, but as far as my intentions have gone I've only ever challenged your statements.

I also have not mixed up anything you've said, only taken it exactly as you've written it.

To quote your answer to my question "Why does it matter":

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Originally Posted by Neela

because aside Ast its most probably the only cls which is able to get that achievement by now.

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You then go on to say it's not about PotD itself but PotD is the only thing RDM can really solo that most other jobs cannot. You refute my SCH and WAR examples by saying they're outliers and took skill besides. I countered that RDM took skill to get to PotD and was an outlier, and now you counter saying you never said that; then we're back to step one, SCH and WAR share similar features, and now PLD too because of how well rounded it is. It'd be just as viable for PotD, in fact, if it weren't synched to 60 where its spells are ungodly expensive. I wager a lot of jobs would be a lot better simply due to wholeness of kit.

You claim RDM takes no skill, but provide nothing to back it up. I provide numbers and statistics that the lowest RDMs are still lower than a lot of the lowest of other jobs. It's not taken for easy play, it's taken for its raise, which I personally have no qualms seeing a nerf to there. But its damage needs no nerfs. Its vercure needs no nerfs. It's fine as is.

I'm fine though if you want to stop here. Makes no difference to me, personally. Also I checked, this thread itself has had FFLogs links posted in it before and it's still running.

Relevant to the current argument:

Q5. It was explained that in Patch 4.0 the focus was to reduce the large DPS disparity, but certain jobs feel more reliant on player skill than others. Are certain jobs intended to maintain that difference?

A5. One of the main concepts of FFXIV is that “when playing a job, you experience the uniqueness of that job.”
Due to this, there is a difference in difficulty between the jobs, and it used to be that higher difficulty meant more DPS. We will be scaling down this factor.

Stop arguing nerf RDM because it's easier. They're not doing that. And clinging to that philosophy just make you look ignorant at this point relative to the game.

Going back to my coffee and sandwich.