Dam. meter

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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Everything you're saying right now is basically: "I feel it's like this therefore it's a fact".
The facts are, you do not need anything to have fun and complete casual content.

People are already using parsers in end-game hardcore content. There is no problem to be solved.
So adding a parser will solve which problems, but do not consider your major argument so that it can be easier for me to refute, sounds familiar?

And isn't your opinion also "for you personally"? I mean for reals, if we are suppose to not consider semantics here, then this whole discussion is irrelevant and the logical thing is to not implement something that already exists, even though it is not built-in it still solves the very problem people are bringing up.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Let's not forget when you are in a dungeon with someone that is pulling tge group down, their excuse for not improving is "i don't have time to look up guides bla bla." Ok so obviously they don't care enough. But if they had a number right in their face they might miiiiight try to make that number higher.

I know people can be jerks, but you don't need a parser to be a jerk. Pluuuusss number shaming can still be considered harassment. So really you guys have no actual solid argument against this feature.

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The problem's bigger than that. Just as you make the point that someone doesn't need a parser to be a jerk, a parser isn't going to magically make someone who doesn't care to try suddenly want to.

Simply put: Those who want to perform well will find a way, parser or not. Those who don't care, won't care, parser or not. There WILL be people who fall in the gap between, and things like "Skip Soar or disband", "Must have [inflexible overstandard] or kick" will just get worse. It's gonna be pretty lame when only the absolute top 1% are either doing it all or getting nowhere because they're too busy overlooking people who are perfectly capable, even good, but not the best.

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Originally Posted by Llan

And isn't your opinion also "for you personally"? I mean for reals,

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That's why I'm inquiring :)

I can see that you don't believe having an astonishing low bottom line player base as a communal issue, so I can see how you wouldn't see eye to eye with my points. If you don't see that as a problem, that's where our dissonance is! I believe this community can be better if given the tools to do so, and I also don't believe it's problematic, elitist or anti-casual- but I do understand how you may see people wanting numbers on screen as opposing to your views.

So what I've gathered from your posts is that you're worried it will pull away from resources and that it's not necessary for casual content.

Would you mind an official parser being added to Midcore and Hardcore content? Or was that just a half point for yourself?

Edit: Side note! You say the community is split on yes/no, how would you feel about a checkbox in the settings for if you want to display an official parser or not (Depending on Mid/Hard or +Soft depending on how you answer my above question).

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Originally Posted by Llan

Alright.
We already have a 3rd party that can be used by people that really care about it adding a built-in one would be redundant and a waste of resources

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Going to let you in on a secret. They already exist for developer builds. It'd take significantly less resources than you'd think.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I can see that you don't believe having an astonishing low bottom line player base as a communal issue, so I can see how you wouldn't see eye to eye with my points. If you don't see that as a problem, that's where our dissonance is! I believe this community can be better if given the tools to do so

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The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!" This is kinda what I've been getting from the pro parser side in some of the recent posts. It's just a little to...aaahhh I don't know how to put it, but it isn't quite right. There will always be bad players and there will always be players who think they are fine where they are. No amount of tools and parsers is gonna change that. Surely you gotta understand that. So what do we do about them? Kick and boot underperforming players from runs till they quit the game? Then we lose players and subs which means a loss of money and funds for the game.

Those who want to improve themselves will seek out the tools to do so. I don't think adding an official parser is gonna magically flip a switch in bad player's heads to go "Thank god they added an official parser, without one, I had no desire to improve myself. But now that they have added one, I do!" so it makes me wonder if this hard push for an official parser is more for validation and acknowledgement of the players who do use them. So, I do have to ask, if we did add a parser and it didn't raise the overall player skill level, then what? The question goes both ways. I don't know, I think I'm rambling at this point. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!"

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I'm sorry if I put it across like that! But even if EVERYONE has a parser, of course not everyone will improve. But maybe SOME people will improve and that's great for the community as a whole! But at the same point, if everyone had a parser, I doubt many people would get worse so it's really at no loss and potentially all gain.

As for abuse and kicking, I made a post on the previous page of this thread explaining how I don't believe that harassment and abuse of tools in an MMO stands for grounds of opposition to it's implementation. We wouldn't have much more than a skeleton of a game if fear of harassment stood in the way of new things.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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Well, you obviously haven't read my other posts in this thread.
I'll sum my view on this matter up.
There is a gap between top-tier DPSs and the majority of the community, yes. A parser will not solve that, I strongly believe that it will cause more harm than good overall. A small percentage of players might start improving over their numbers because they have that information, but as mentioned people that don't care, will still not care about their DPS being optimal. I think diverting resources into a built-in parser implementation for a small percentage of the player-base to use is a waste.

From a game's development stand point you can only justify that time if it would guarantee benefits to the majority of the player base without generating a backlash or increase in customer service work because of it.

There are other solutions to improve players performances that don't rely on the community to "be nice about low numbers and teach people". Which is what they'll try to do in SB. I'd say having a better Novice Network training quest line would also be beneficial and more engaging than a parser with systems that they already have in-game thus requiring "less work". A small revamp into the practice dummy would also be an interesting solution to allow low DPS players to improve their rotations without being DPS shamed by people everywhere.

Im also not a White Knight for the bad players in hardcore content. If you are joining hardcore raid groups you should know that you need to be at your best.

@Canadane

Like moving something from dev to production environment will not generate problems.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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But again, those people who want to improve will seek the tools themselves. So what happens to those who don't? I'm not talking harassment, abuse maybe but the question is ultimately, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? Do we just boot and exclude them till they quit? I understand the benefits of adding an official parser, I get them 100% but I think we're only looking at the benefits and not really the side effects that could come from it. Trying to remove the discussion about how the parser could be abused, removes a serious portion of discussion. When the abuse starts hurting the game itself.

(PREFACE: Keep in mind, I am not talking about all pro parser users, more the extremes who do boot and exclude people based on parsers.)

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it. So those who boot based on parsers would most likely be way more open about it and the fact we have GMs essentially saying it's ok to vote kick people based on differing playstyles, means there are no repercussions for people who would abuse the parser to exclude other players. While yes, I think the benefits from adding an official parser are good, I think this would be one of those additions that the top tiers benefit the most from, mid tier players would benefit some from, and low tier players would be hurt by it, possibly leading to players quitting cause they can't get into content.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it.

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I believe that most of the Pro vs Against ideas can be boiled down to this statement, which I disagree with. We know that /say /shout /tell, friends list, vote kick, emotes, Back in the day we had Spirit Bonders in parties and 24 man and things of that sort- are all used for abusive means, but none of us just sit back and normalize being spammed 100+ times. We get mad, cranky and even report when people use these functions for their worst. But at the same time do you think the game would be for the better without them?

Having some dicks at an event doesn't normalize being a dick, but getting rid of the event in the first place means nobody gets to partake.