As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No it was story mode but was 630 or something cant remember exactly, maybe its been removed but you did comment on it when you posted in the thread I started. It was more than 500 I know that and was a9 Well it was just to illustrate that I did learn sch and did try I think my partner was wmg at the time

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Yeah I edited my above post, there was one @ 633 DPS. I'm surprised there was no Bane, Shadowflare or Energy Drains, but I guess that's understandable if you didn't know about SCH's DPS skills.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

was being a bit sarcastic and you always disagree with anything not pro dps thats why I said it. And it really isnt entertaing to run farms in any sense of the word not to me anyway

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And you always ignore anything I say about moderation, healer dps being situational, and how the meta is different based on the level of content at hand. :)

I will always advocate playing to the best of one's ability. It truly is more fun to excel at clearing content than kick back and coast.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Yeah I edited my above post, there was one @ 633 DPS. I'm surprised there was no Bane, Shadowflare or Energy Drains, but I guess that's understandable if you didn't know about SCH's DPS skills.

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oh shadow fler is the first thing i put down now to bh and no didnt us bane cos i felt like to long to put dots on adds and spread it so concetrated on boss. Energy drain I use alot now but if the situation is iffy ill save it for lustrate

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

And you always ignore anything I say about moderation, healer dps being situational, and how the meta is different based on the level of content at hand. :)

I will always advocate playing to the best of one's ability. It truly is more fun to excel at clearing content than kick back and coast.

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Ive never ignored anything anyon has said thats how I know your pro dps. But Im curiou is this your main? Cos I remember you saying you do 70% dps in fights but logs show you doing 200 dps or so. I do 200 sometimes on ast and I only dps at the beginning of the fight rest of time Im healing thats 0n a9s

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Ive never ignored anything anyon has said thats how I know your pro dps. But Im curiou is this your main? Cos I remember you saying you do 70% dps in fights but logs show you doing 200 dps or so

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You should stop looking at story mode parses, most people don't even care enough to upload those.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Ive never ignored anything anyon has said thats how I know your pro dps. But Im curiou is this your main? Cos I remember you saying you do 70% dps in fights but logs show you doing 200 dps or so

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People have asked, multiple times, what you do in the downtime when you're not healing, and not dpsing, and I've never seen you answer that.

I am a WAR main. My group doesn't upload to fflogs. We run numbers for our own self improvement purposes. If you see parses from me, they weren't from my group, that'll be from random duty or party finder groups, most certainly by people I'm not in voice chat with. I could choose to suppress the parses, because they were uploaded without my permission, but I don't really care.

My best parses as off healer have been on Zurvan with my static. But I sit in cleric stance quite a bit for just about anything but pvp and Dun Scaith, have all three healers at 60, and have healed all content except current Alex Savage tier (because both our healers are better than me; also, tank main).

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

People have asked, multiple times, what you do in the downtime when you're not healing, and not dpsing, and I've never seen you answer that.


My best parses as off healer have been on Zurvan with my static. But I sit in cleric stance quite a bit for just about anything but pvp and Dun Scaith, have all three healers at 60, and have healed all content except current Alex Savage tier (because both our healers are better than me; also, tank main).

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I already said Im active and dont get much downtime but this is situational. I dps alot in low content i actually do 80 or 90% in dungeons. And to hoodrat above I dont see any for savage at all. Well wasnt a critism but if you can only do 200 in zurvan ex why do you clain theres so much down time? I say this because I really believe its only the really really good healers and groups that can healer dps 70% of the time and theres alot of mis representation of what an average healer can pull off.Im not trying to be bad here or anything and its not nice when your parsed to make judgements

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well wasnt a critism but if you can only do 200 in zurvan ex why do you clain theres so much down time?

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I answered your question already, Feyona. You clipped out the answer.

You're seeing parses from random party finder groups. Those were groups that I main healed. So yeah, you're only seeing the dps from the beginning of the overall fight.

Just editing to say....that's what parses are FOR. They're a tool for improvement. They are an objective performance measure.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I answered your question already, Feyona. You clipped out the answer.

You're seeing parses from random party finder groups. Those were groups that I main healed. So yeah, you're only seeing the dps from the beginning of the overall fight.

Just editing to say....that's what parses are FOR. They're a tool for improvement. They are an objective performance measure.

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I know this. Mine were done without my knowledge too. My performance was pulled to pieces with one. Getting a picture of how it feels? No not trying to be nasty at all just trying to say that sometimes theres not as much downtime as people may think. I can do 200 dps at the beginning of zurvan as main healer too but only cleared it few times as we are on a11s atm and trying to get clear before echo.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

oh shadow fler is the first thing i put down now to bh and no didnt us bane cos i felt like to long to put dots on adds and spread it so concetrated on boss. Energy drain I use alot now but if the situation is iffy ill save it for lustrate

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But I guess you can probably see that other groups point now.

- Ran with you from Oct 20th to Nov 6th
- Ran some easy mode A9 Story Modes asking you to just DPS to see what kind of output you were capable of on Nov 2nd. (Probably disappointed in low DoT uptime, no use of Bane off the boss onto adds. No Shadowflare or Energy Drains. No Blizzard II on adds etc - this was with no heals other than what the pet provided)
- Continued to bring you into A9S up until Nov 6th with no improvement on DPS (AST 2k HPS and 157 DPS, SCH 1500 HPS and 36 DPS)


It really does seem like they tried hard to keep you in the group. Especially taking the time specifically to go into A9 Story where there is less stress just to give you a chance to practice the DPS meta.
I understand everyone has different skill levels, but I guess that group just wasn't willing to go from square one. So you really shouldn't take it to heart that the whole DPS meta is a terrible thing (or that everyone is toxic), since you say you've improved so much since then anyway.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I know this. Mine were done without my knowledge too. My performance was pulled to pieces with one. Getting a picture of how it feels? No not trying to be nasty at all just trying to say that sometimes theres not as much downtime as people may think. I can do 200 dps at the beginning of zurvan as main healer too but only cleared it few times as we are on a11s atm and trying to get clear before echo.

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No, I don't know how you feel, because my situation is different from yours. And I don't raid Alex Savage on scholar. I also went in with groups, as the WAR OT, with the expectation that my dps would be monitored and asked to improve (and it was, and I was, and I did).

On the opener, both my co-healer and I can actually do about 1500 each. The upload, as I understand it, is for the WHOLE fight. It doesn't break it into the different phases.

So. I'm not sure what relevance this has to the subject at hand, and it's certainly not going to change my opinion of the meta.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But I guess you can probably see that other groups point now

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No srry I had already left that group. So wrong. they gave me a week to learn scholar dps thats 2 tries on a10s and was judged on those tries. Before that it was fine just to clear stuff. Ithen joined a pro static group that wanted to train me so at least I was taught how to. This group requested I lear n fight before I attempted to dps.This was much more reasonable for a hardcore group to suggest.As they knewI had never done healer dps in raids .Unfortunitely group broke up in two weeks as leader left server etc. I continued to practice in spare time on my own or with a friend co healer. The previous group had another sch to replace me but I think the group itself failed to get clears after I left cos people kept leaving. Or not sure individuals got friends to help them clear dont think they ever got another permanent healer and I can understand why. Plus I was parsed on my first practice try which I didnt know about, just saw it there

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

No, I don't know how you feel, because my situation is different from yours. And I don't raid Alex Savage on scholar. I also went in with groups, as the WAR OT, with the expectation that my dps would be monitored and asked to improve (and it was, and I was, and I did).

On the opener, both my co-healer and I can actually do about 1500 each. The upload, as I understand it, is for the WHOLE fight. It doesn't break it into the different phases.

So. I'm not sure what relevance this has to the subject at hand, and it's certainly not going to change my opinion of the meta.

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So you say, but 70% claim for whole fight as main healer seems a bit far fetched.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So you say, but 70% claim for whole fight as main healer seems a bit far fetched.

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That's not what I said...I do think you're reading and retaining very selectively.

Anyhow, have fun; it's the weekend!

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No srry I had already left that group. So wrong.

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Well...better luck next time. Guess I'm with dreamer just thought I'd check in while I'm having a drink and waiting for my nachos to cook. If you're ever in Hyperion toss me a /tell we'll have fun running for sure.

Yes, I love to DPS as Scholar. I feel its the best use the team. Cross-Class skill Stone Skin to buff everyone, use your healer pet to obey you and cast the pet heal on the tank over and over. The nice thing about the pet heal is 3 things:

1. It doesn't use mana
2. It has a fast cooldown
3. You can cast otherskills yourself as your doing it, since your pet is the one casting it.

Using this with scholar you have beast damage over of time skills. Meaning all you have to do is cast the combination of skills on the enemy every so often between healing.

Bio, Bio2, Miasma, then Bane to apply all your damage over time skills to nearby enemies. I also even Cross-Skill Aero to get another damage over time spell.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Well...better luck next time.

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I dont think Id be considered good enough to run with you, but thanks for the offer . I f id come here with claims of doing 1700 dps and said every group loves me because I love dps I would have been much more popular. I think for now Ill give having my perfomance criticized a miss. I may go beg a team to 'put up' with me and even get a thanks for helping someone get a clear. People play games to get rewards out of what they achieve. Design that you learn first and progress. Having studied psychology i can state that failure to get any kind of reward for effort results in apathy. Efforts being thwarted at every turn by groups or the community will result in people giving up trying or the game. Some arnt even given a chance to learn with all those high expectations of high, optimal, play (healer dps) (skill level). Any way some of you guys need the less skilled to feel better than and give yourselves a 'pat on the back'

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

That's not what I said...I do think you're reading and retaining very selectively.

Anyhow, have fun; it's the weekend!

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Oh sorry thought you were very pro healer dps and gave me a list of the scholar dps skills which makes it much better to dps with. I wonder why why you dont sch in savage.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

lmao all that shit

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Now that really makes you think why you don't have an a12s kill yet now doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Oh sorry thought you were very pro healer dps and gave me a list of the scholar dps skills which makes it much better to dps with. I wonder why why you dont sch in savage.

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So basically you didn't read anything I said lol.

Good luck with your future endeavors. :)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

So basically you didn't read anything I said lol.

Good luck with your future endeavors. :)

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Now you see why we are at the 106th page.

edit : 107 actually.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

That's why Healer DPS gets more discussion than other sub-par dps. It's a matter of clearing up a false concept of "good", as opposed to just pointing out that they're bad.

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I agree. The statement "I am a healer and I refuse to do DPS" reminds of a Summoner that says "I am a DPS and will only raise if both healers are dead (or just never raise at all)".

Of course the healer has to do DPS only when he thinks it is safe. So when a place is new for him or for the group in general (lots of avoidable damage taken by a lot of players, etc.) the healer can do a lot less DPS, and depending on his personality (how much risk he is confortable with taking) he will do more or less DPS. But doing 0 DPS I don't think should happen.

In expert dungeons when all know already well the place, good healers usually do more DPS than the tanks (and also more than some DPS :) ).
In very low level dungeons, usually the healer has a lot of spare time to deal damage. Doing nothing makes no sense and it is the place to learn to enter and get out of Cleric Stance. Mistakes will be made, but most times with no big consequences. In 51+ leveling dungeons when the healer is new and maybe other members of the party too, he has to be more prudent, and later when he dominates the place he can do more and more DPS. But 0 DPS should not happen.

In the case of a SCH, much more since he has the fairy, and since he has been an Arcanist, should be from the start used to deal as much damage as possible.

It's a question of making your best effort for your party, and that effort also helps you to get better and better.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Now that really makes you think why you don't have an a12s kill yet now doesn't it?

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Very good at mis quoting too 'clap'. Well wouldnt expect everyone to understand. That may take a bit more mental agility than clearing a12s

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

So basically you didn't read anything I said lol.

Good luck with your future endeavors. :)

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Unless I was seeing thing you did give me a list of why sch was good for dps in another thread or dont you read your own posts?

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

I agree. The statement "I am a healer and I refuse to do DPS" reminds of a Summoner that says "I am a DPS and will only raise if both healers are dead (or just never raise at all)".

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Not a valid comparison. You don't raise every single fight where's you "need" to DPS practically everywhere encounter and the amount of effort required to pull off a raise is far less than a Healer managing Cleric Stance, constant DPS, and heals. Let's not also forget about Swift Cast Raise. What's the penalty of a Summoner that stops to Raise? Temporary DPS loss with no risk to the party. What's the penalty of constantly DPSing with Cleric Stance? Lowered heals, which could lead to a whipe if an accident occurs or if someone does it improperly. Even if you are good, the risk is still there and the comparison being introduced is not the same. Once again, there is nothing in this game you can directly compare to Healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Not a valid comparison. You don't raise every single fight where's you "need" to DPS practically everywhere encounter and the amount of effort required to pull off a raise is far less than a Healer managing Cleric Stance, constant DPS, and heals. Let's not also forget about Swift Cast Raise. What's the penalty of a Summoner that stops to Raise? Temporary DPS loss with no risk to the party. What's the penalty of constantly DPSing with Cleric Stance? Lowered heals, which could lead to a whipe if an accident occurs or if someone does it improperly. Even if you are good, the risk is still there and the comparison being introduced is not the same. Once again, there is nothing in this game you can directly compare to Healer DPS.

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The point is, you're playing a class as rigid as possible and only doing what your role name suggests. Like a tank who stays in tank stance forever and only tries to generate enmity.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

The point is, you're playing a class as rigid as possible and only doing what your role name suggests. Like a tank who stays in tank stance forever and only tries to generate enmity.

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Think we all get that by now. Tank changing stance has also no comparison, I don think it has a cd for one, even if you think thats not a problem a tank can pretty much predict due to mechanics when he can dps, but no one can predict when anyone will take damage in between mechanics. For healers seconds count and someone can die very quick. Think healers always got to be ready to heal.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Think we all get that by now. Tank changing stance has also no comparison, I don think it has a cd for one, even if you think thats not a problem a tank can pretty much predict due to mechanics when he can dps, but no one can predict when anyone will take damage in between mechanics. For healers seconds count and someone can die very quick. Think healers always got to be ready to heal.

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Sorry but no one "randomly" takes damage. That's not how this game works. Fights are very scripted.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

snip

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I want to clear this whole thing up because I have been reading and decoding your problems for so many pages, and people keep attacking you for your views and you keep shooting yourself in the foot by telling them they are wrong (they aren't wrong, they just aren't addressing your issue).

Your issue is that you got kicked from a party because they wanted you to DPS and you "weren't good enough". You DPS as a healer but advocate that DPSing as a healer shouldn't be expected and that the system needs to change, so your issue is more with "toxic" players who promote healer DPS than the fundamental idea of DPSing as a healer (which you really should clarify more).

The thing is, player skill and player expectation isn't binary, rather a sliding scale and you have all sorts of different groups looking for different types of player. Under the logic you have proposed, and the general consensus of those "attacking" you, being able to heal and dps well at the same time is the sign of a great healer, they are the "star player of the zanderkand abes" healer who always gets picked first for the football team, so with that in mind I want to deconstruct player ability:

Imagine player ability as a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being ultra epeen world first DPS healing god (exaggeration, but just imagine a good healer), and 1 being a healer who refuses to DPS and uses 3 buttons on their hotbar, that being just their basic cures and maybe a swiftcasted raise. Healers can fall anywhere on this scale, and players need to find a group that suits their point on the scale. The issue that you had is that you joined a group looking for a pro raid healer that was an 8-10, when you were around a 5 or 6, and that is why you got kicked. You should not be angry about this, this is not their fault, and it is also not your fault, the group just had different needs to what you are offering, and this led to a new problem, which is your attitude.

Attitude works on the same scale, and ideally should be higher than your skill. What players should be doing is striving to improve, if they are a 4, they should have the attitude of a 6, and that will help improve their skill in the long run. What happened with you is you got kicked and instead of saying to yourself "they needed a healer that can do ____ in ____ content, I should improve to that level" you went "uh, wtf, thats not fair", and your attitude since has been at around a 2.

You understand why healer DPS is good, I understand that, you do execute healer DPS when it is necessary, I get that, but your attitude is what needs work now, not your actions. Be the 8 in attitude if you can't in skill.



Also... slightly off-topic, PLD's sword oath is on the GCD, meaning that it takes 2.5 seconds to go into it, and 2.5 seconds to get out of it, so yes there is a barrier.

Would love for actual healer mains to converse on this matter... The stance aside healer DPS is helpful but it shouldnt ever have come to the point where 106 pages are being written over it. Either the healer helps dps or they heal. Either way the basic job description is good enough with out (needing) to DPS in all but raid. And the devs have acknowledged that area being too tough. As a conservative healer I for one will start saying you are rather a pathetic lot if your unable to do something sans the lowest damage in the games aid. But thats my personal opinion, whilst logically in a situation where fights can go south cause the healer has no Mana nor any heavy hitting heals well your group shouldnt be encouraging said role to be locked into low heals. Finally as per the rest of the game if I come across someone crying about whm or healers needing to DPS I kick that lazy person to the curb. This is a role playing game and the role is HEALER first and foremost. End rant.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Think we all get that by now. Tank changing stance has also no comparison, I don think it has a cd for one, even if you think thats not a problem a tank can pretty much predict due to mechanics when he can dps, but no one can predict when anyone will take damage in between mechanics. For healers seconds count and someone can die very quick. Think healers always got to be ready to heal.

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Actually, it does. Only Warrior can swap stances easily. Dark Knight requires both a sizable amount of MP and a GCD to turn Grit back on. Same rules apply to them but it goes less noticed because no tank will ever stand still. No one is arguing they shouldn't be healed focused, however playing any job rigidly means you're playing it sub-par.

Role playing saying slowly so you can catch that bit. Lol at subpar it isn't sub par to fulfil the job description and that has always been to HEAL. Adding functions is the place of the player not you or your silly notions on the matter please do assume for one second you get to dictate whether doing the job is subpar you were never the sole person anyone had to answer to.

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Originally Posted by Coldstoni

Would love for actual healer mains to converse on this matter... The stance aside healer DPS is helpful but it shouldnt ever have come to the point where 106 pages are being written over it.

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I am a decent healer, despite having stuff to learn. Imo healers should dps whenever they can, BUT in a static communication and working together to reduce the dmg incoming is key. Even dd can help with virus + other skills. The discussion is ongoing, because many people talk about healing, but never really done it in raiding and therefore don't 100% get whats needed to be decent or good. "dealing dmg as healer is easy" or "heal me full or i am dead" are two sentences, i have heared in the past. Those are the guys, who think putting up dots and than press one button to win, is everything. I had an discussion this week and some people don't even know that healer have an opener for example. And then there are also tanks/dd telling you how you should heal "use cure 2 on every tank buster", which is not needed.

You are the player before healer. It doesn't matter what MMO you play, as long as your character allows you to perform unique actions. You should execute it.. Whoever think healers should only heal can continue their journey, but me... as a player and someone looking to become the best, I'll do everything in my power to hasten our dungeon run. That means, I'll DPS as a white mage and heal, while carefully planning my mana usage. It's just part of the strategy to me. To be honest, if you DPS and heal in dungeon, it kinda trains your brain and increase your reflexes. It's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Sorry but no one "randomly" takes damage. That's not how this game works. Fights are very scripted.

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So sorry I must be playing a different game then because in all the groups Im in people take damage and sometimes need a rez. Unless no one in your groups never take any. Well Im talking from experience at least. And its doubtful anyone is going to die cos a tank is in wrong stance for 2 secs longer than he should be

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Also... slightly off-topic, PLD's sword oath is on the GCD, meaning that it takes 2.5 seconds to go into it, and 2.5 seconds to get out of it, so yes there is a barrier.

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You are right it is the expectation and it isnt just MY problem as you can see other people get it too, but I wish I had never mentioned my personal experience because it tends to get made the entire problem that only I have and no one else . But these were just examples of what happens when you dont get chance to learn this optimal level of play and you are nervous about doing it and its interpreted as refusing, like its so easy everyone can do it. Even when learning a fight. Im not a proffessional footballer and those places are extremely hard to get. Yes you can improve but if no one has a learner then you cant progress. Its hard to do in new content so should be disabled. I am not the only person that finds it hard even hardcore groups say learn fight first. I dont have such a narrow mind that IIm not seeing the whole picture of the situation. This is like not having a pitch to play on tbh it creates exclusion from content . I can heal stuff though same as a guy can have fun playing with his friends and still win a football game. Cos he can still score goals. Doesnt matter if he cant be a goal keeper and score at the same time. Actually goal keeping is a very good analogy as it is essentia for him to be there but doesnt have to do everything the rest of the team is doing he has to watch the ball though and prevent a goal Its doubt full If his team moans at him for standing there for 10 seconds though without trying to score a goal. Would you say goal keepers are lazy?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, it does. Only Warrior can swap stances easily. Dark Knight requires both a sizable amount of MP and a GCD to turn Grit back on. Same rules apply to them but it goes less noticed because no tank will ever stand still. No one is arguing they shouldn't be healed focused, however playing any job rigidly means you're playing it sub-par.

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No one doubts tanking may be difficult to manage or more complex and it is hard to get a really good tank that can do it all. Here Im talking about wipes when a healer cant pull it off correctly. Just as that tank dps is optimal so is healer dps, and its not easy to manage in new content especially sch that has an overwhelming set of skills to manage at the same time as learning the fight especially for someone new to savage content. Just like you I have tank and healers, but ive invested my time into healing more to learn. Maybe it goes less noticed because wiping does occur as much from it maybe?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, it does. Only Warrior can swap stances easily. Dark Knight requires both a sizable amount of MP and a GCD to turn Grit back on. Same rules apply to them but it goes less noticed because no tank will ever stand still. No one is arguing they shouldn't be healed focused, however playing any job rigidly means you're playing it sub-par.

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Actually Warrior stance swap has a cooldown too. If I'm in Defiance and I accidentally toggle Deliverance when I need to be in Defiance, I have to wait and deal with it while I wait for Defiance to be available to swap stances again. And it can lead to a wipe if done at the wrong time.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Actually Warrior stance swap has a cooldown too. If I'm in Defiance and I accidentally toggle Deliverance when I need to be in Defiance, I have to wait and deal with it while I wait for Defiance to be available to swap stances again. And it can lead to a wipe if done at the wrong time.

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Tank swaping happens predictedly though same as healer got to time whirlwind and photon. I woulnt go cleric when those coming and got to make sure I got light speed available. Same sort of thing. Dont think tanks have to fit stance changing in 15 sec windows though, may be wrong, I dont play tank high level, so its hard for me to comment on difficulty, just as you dont play sch high end.

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

You are the player before healer. It doesn't matter what MMO you play, as long as your character allows you to perform unique actions. You should execute it.. Whoever think healers should only heal can continue their journey, but me... as a player and someone looking to become the best, I'll do everything in my power to hasten our dungeon run. That means, I'll DPS as a white mage and heal, while carefully planning my mana usage. It's just part of the strategy to me. To be honest, if you DPS and heal in dungeon, it kinda trains your brain and increase your reflexes. It's a good thing.

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Think Ive said before Ive played eso and wow. In wow healers never dps or its not expected. except disco priest whicn is built into the class and it heals while it does so same as monk. On eso alot of spells heal while dps and visa versa. These do not have such an awkward handicapping mechanic such as cleric. Your role is determined by build in eso it seems. Just to add here though none of them have 36 or so skills they have to manage and personally think thats rather excessive on any game. Eso you only have five you can use at one time and you can do ten or 15 for expert play I guess that changing stance or what they call 'weapon swap' but thats 1 click you dont need to retarget cos u just aim it at mob