So uh, wheres the long lasting content?

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

It's a role skill. They just need to change the role from general casting to magical DPS. That having been said, it's also the only way to recover enough mana to sufficiently heal after dying. I'm not saying any of these were good ideas. I'm just trying to imagine what a world where healing would be a challenge in regular content would look like. The fact is that healing is so easy these days simply because players are really skilled. There's not much need for healing when everyone is competent enough to avoid 90% of the damage out there. To make healing a challenge, you need to make damage unavoidable and resource management painful. I don't think either of those characteristics make the game fun for most players.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewfOmHjwYU world first clear of A4s from a WHM perspective

this is what people want tbh. bring back the low duration DoTs make healers have responsibilities in mechanics. which could force them into awkward situations (notice the WHM taking far out orbs and the SCH instead being the one closer to the party since it can apply shields for orb damage). notice how much healing is having to be done not just on groups but single targets as well. fight design can always be better but instead they chose to simplify it to the point where even P1s and P2s feels kinda just like all other fights for healers which doesn't make sense a "hardcore" fight shouldn't feel the same to heal as a normal raid. and the amount of mechanics that have individual responsibility is nearly none or people cheese it. i mean ffs P4s p1 orbs can be cheesed by just having two people take an orb.

P3s towers are a great example of healers being forced into awkward situation each healer having to be on opposite ends of the arena. imagine if healers had lower AOE radius group heals each healer would have to make sure they can keep the group up and themselves. this is completely irrelevant cause healers have huge AOEs and increased healing during it but i digress)

i mean hell as much people hated bring back cleric stance and allow us to choose whether or not we want to see how far we can cheese lower healing to get even more DPS out if they wanna continue down this fight making philosophy

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Originally Posted by Adamantini

who here is asking for the new WoW where you are forced to farm everyday to get a s*** item?
I'm asking for something that will hold my attention for the next 4 months

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Not sure if this was asked to you already, but what kind of content would fit your criteria? A questline? Changes to dungeons or maybe more things to donwith our Achievements?

I've been playing this game off and on for years and still have plenty to do.
If you want a game that will act like a second job though, there are plenty to choose from. Many even have predatory tactics to nickel and dime you as well, if you're into that.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewfOmHjwYU world first clear of A4s from a WHM perspective

this is what people want tbh.

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It feels like we're going in circles here. Here's how this discussion went:

Request: Make healing good again
Response: It's fine. There's just not much to heal because everyone's too good. Either run with random players or run high end content if you want to heal in fights.
Request: We don't want to make dungeons into high end content. We just want healers to be good.
Response: OK, then please explain what you mean by good.
Request: Here's a video of a world-first clear of a Savage encounter that illustrates how healers can be good.

Are you kidding me with this? If you feel that the current Savage/Ultimate fights aren't as compelling as previous ones, then I understand why you would be angry, but that's a whole other conversation that has nothing to do with the state of healers in roulettes. Roulette content shouldn't be inspired by world-first Savage clears. There's a reason that there are more views on Savage clear videos than there are actual clears.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I think some of the issue is that there is no midcore content really. It's either content that you can do and consume easily like casual stuff or it's stuff that requires you hit your head against the wall and have to spend a large amount of time progging over and over.

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Honestly, I think that the issue is that you've gotten too good at the game and have outgrown the midcore content, but instead of progressing to hardcore content, you want the game designers to shift the goalposts and redefine hardcore gameplay as midcore. The week that Aglia came out, my daughter was beating her head against bosses all day long, and I could hear the despair in her voice. The next week, she was doing one-shot clears and told me, "Well, it's fine once you know what you're doing." Then I came on these forums and saw players complaining that Aglia was way too easy, that the game had obviously been dumbed down yet again, and that it was another clear sign that the midcore players were being squeezed out. The fact is that normal Aglia is midcore. It's not casual because I guarantee the average player is going to die several times on their first play through it, and I guarantee that a casual guild going in blind would see its fair share of wipes. it's not hardcore, either, because it can be mastered in a matter of hours. It's midcore, plain and simple. There's no shame in admitting that you've gotten good at the game. If you're ready for the next step, take the next step. Don't wait for them to redefine the low skill portion of the game to match your high skill level.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

It feels like we're going in circles here. Here's how this discussion went:

Request: Make healing good again
Response: It's fine. There's just not much to heal because everyone's too good. Either run with random players or run high end content if you want to heal in fights.
Request: We don't want to make dungeons into high end content. We just want healers to be good.
Response: OK, then please explain what you mean by good.
Request: Here's a video of a world-first clear of a Savage encounter that illustrates how healers can be good.

Are you kidding me with this? If you feel that the current Savage/Ultimate fights aren't as compelling as previous ones, then I understand why you would be angry, but that's a whole other conversation that has nothing to do with the state of healers in roulettes. Roulette content shouldn't be inspired by world-first Savage clears. There's a reason that there are more views on Savage clear videos than there are actual clears.

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just cause you seem to ignore/not understand what the implications of what the fights (even "hardcore") being simplified to a point that healers basically do nothing unique or feel like they're just healing a normal fight mean, i'll explain

let's take a normal fight. ok boss #645 which is already stupidly easy for 90% of the playerbase cause it's MSQ content. and then we release a hardcore version of the fight that is boss #645 but with maybe a few new mechanics if we're lucky. no new variance or ways to make each role work for their damage/healing. then the fight designs themselves are the issue which affects ALL content even MSQ. and this is why people say we've gone too far into simplistic combat cause any slight uphill battle is met with complaints and people saying it's too hard zodiark, phjoinix savage, and endsinger EX being prime examples which if you notice is from all "difficulties"

if the hardest content in the game is boring to players of a role imagine how they feel in normal content where it's somehow even easier/more boring than the "hard content". now the issue is if we increase normal content difficulty we also then have to increase harder difficulty content as well. to make up for the difference which then leads into what this game tries so hard to avoid and thats having alot of content for "hardcore" players only.

the easiest way to avoid this is instead focus on healer kits and make the downtime they have more fun since all healing is scripted anyways. thats why people say they don't want normal content brought up in difficulty. cause of the repercussions it'll have on difficulty scaling as a whole which will go against the games "motto" of everyone basically being able to do everything (unless your ultimates ofc). and making kits slightly more complex for people who are a bit more experienced for healers won't affect normal players since once again these fights are made with literally worst DPS comps imaginable in mind and healing will still be scripted/plannable. even something as simple as shorter DoTS would add alot of (artificial) busy work for healers but it's still better than now.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

It feels like we're going in circles here. Here's how this discussion went:

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How the discussion actually went:

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Request: Make healing good again
Response: It's fine. There's just not much to heal because everyone's too good. Either run with random players or run high end content if you want to heal in fights.
Request: Can my job be fun for me without relying on my party being bad?
Response: No.
Request: Okay then I want to go back to doing this *insert link*
Response: No. Think of the children.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Are you kidding me with this?

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Roulette content shouldn't be inspired by world-first Savage clears.

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You are correct it shouldn't be inspired by either extremes of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

It's not casual because I guarantee the average player is going to die several times on their first play through it, and I guarantee that a casual guild going in blind would see its fair share of wipes.

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It's casual. Dying/wiping is not a punishment it is merely a response. If it wasn't casual you would see raids timing out like back in thunder daddy.
If you can finish something blind in one lock out it's casual.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

It's casual. Dying/wiping is not a punishment it is merely a response. If it wasn't casual you would see raids timing out like back in thunder daddy.
If you can finish something blind in one lock out it's casual.

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this is kinda what i mean by any slight uphill battles is seen as too difficult or people complain about them. wiping is not a bad thing the only time wiping was really a bad thing was back before we had CDs reset on wipe. but since hten you literally lose nothing but time by wiping and if you wipe you learn from it what could you have done better what could've the other 7 people done better? etc.. then what you're supposed to do is interact with the other players (this is an MMORPG after all) see if y'all can't come up with a plan or something. you talk about it and repull, you wipe again you learn new stuff or somebody messed up thats fine. you keep repulling and learning/adjusting thats literally trial and error. but nowadays it seems like if you spend more than like 3 wipes in a non prog instance or MSQ content everyone leaves instead of just you know talking it out.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

How the discussion actually went:








You are correct it shouldn't be inspired by either extremes of the spectrum.



It's casual. Dying/wiping is not a punishment it is merely a response. If it wasn't casual you would see raids timing out like back in thunder daddy.
If you can finish something blind in one lock out it's casual.

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It's funny you should bring up Orbonne because there was an actual attempt to bring challenging content into the roulette and we can all see how that turned out. Anything that is not face roll easy and quick is immediately scorned by usually the raiders first, since they only want roulettes or anything that isn't savage or ultimate to be quick and easy.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

It's funny you should bring up Orbonne because there was an actual attempt to bring challenging content into the roulette and we can all see how that turned out. Anything that is not face roll easy and quick is immediately scorned by usually the raiders first, since they only want roulettes or anything that isn't savage or ultimate to be quick and easy.

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They would need to do a seperate roulette with applicable rewards to get people to want to do more challenging raids. When there are easier, relatively quick instances in the same roulette as more difficult and/or lengthy instances, people will typically opt to just do the quicker, easier content. Especially when it is a daily.