Why the hate with endgame fights?

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

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Yeah, O1S and O2S are the easiest in Deltascape. I can understand about the depression...I've struggled with it myself since 2011. I won't lie...O3S is punishing on healers because of all the damage. But...I'm the sort of individual who hates being unable to take on a challenge. We're on the same datacenter and I main a healer, so I'd be very happy to run with you after I come back from my burnout break. Could help you with some healer-specific tips, if you'd like.

What's kind of funny with you saying this Bobs is that in the trailer for 4.2, the jade stoa trial actually has what looks like the enemy bullets from Nier Automata, which is kind of a bullet hell action game. It might not just be figurative, but literal! And of course, solo Lakshimi missile command.

I get what you are saying though. There's more in common with action and bullet hell games than traditional MMOs here.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?" and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

Let me just state this. I think it is safe to say the enrages are not the main turnoff from extreme and savage modes. Rather I believe it is the trial and error nature of those fights combined with the lack of handholding. Do I think that is reasonable as a roadblock? Absolutely. These fights still very much respect your intelligence and are a better way to put your mastery to the test.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You are assuming that I haven't.

In Os4 you are LITERALLY running around while a giant bullet chases you (call its a black hole if you like)

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If all you're doing during Black Hole is simply "running around" then I don't believe you find the content as easy as you claim it to be.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Anything to not talk about the topic. Right?

I'm glad you learned something about syntax today.

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I'm not sure why you keep trying to bash people for things you seem to be struggling with.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?"

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Nah I didn't. you might want to re read what I said.

I basically said some people hate endgame because they find it unapproachable / overwhelming because of the lack of a real difficulty curve.
players wanting to do endgame stuff are greeted by this massive increase in difficulty and it's quite simply overwhelming for many of them. they clear a normal mode and think there ready for the extreme / savage and they're a million miles away.

I also said if the game had a real difficulty curve that promoted player growth and improvement as they progressed through the game instead of what currently exists then it's likely more players might then might actually find end game fights to be more fun and approachable

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

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I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

that is why the top players rofl stomped omega and creator because they quite literally smashed straight through the ceiling and kept on going up.

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

HM01

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My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

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If the party puts the tentacles on the little wagon wheels instead of the edge of the arena, you will be able to see all 4 markers very easily when zoomed out. it doesnt have to be placed on the very edge, just a tad inwards.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

And that's why enrage timers need to die in a fire.

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If you want enrage timers gone, what would you replace them with? SURELY you don't want the meta shifting to a 4 tank 4 healer meta where ALL DPS jobs are excluded because you can just ignore mechanics with invulns and erase mistakes with heals/resses.

How would you solve this issue? Or is your intent to simply 'dumb down' the content so that others can do it?

Are you ok with mid-fight DPS checks? I.e. if failed - does something, spawns adds, void zones, etc.? or are those bad too?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

It's impossible to run out of MP. I would change that.
I would make stun mechanics useful again.
I would make it so you need to dispell boss or the players.
I would make it so DPS have to make a stun rotation.
I would get rid of predictable mechanics.

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Ok this is a good start, but still too non-committal to the discussion.

I agree on the first change.
I agree on the second change.
I agree on the third change.
I agree on the fourth change.
I agree on the fifth change.

Now that we've covered you and I are in complete agreement, let's see if we can dig deeper.

HOW would you change these things? Give examples. Try to frame it in context we can understand in the current design paradigm.

Here are 2 posts I've made previously on this topic and how I would change things. I'd be curious to see your input.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ork-%28LONG%29

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Eureka-Concept

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Originally Posted by Bobs

You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end. Any real challenge would make parses useless, can't have that can we.

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As a pro-parser person I disagree with this statement. That is not what I want to do (you can see an example in the link above that covers my idea of more engaging play). I also love measuring my performance and improving upon it and I love the cooperative competition that stems from it.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Take Grand Cross mecanics from Neo Exdeath, those are not your typical dodge bullets stuff. But I doubt you ever saw that.

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This is actually a pretty bad example. Grand Cross Omega literally feels like a bullet hell while you're doing it. The others I'd agree with though, but you could probably come up with half a dozen better examples lol.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

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This is inaccurate. An enrage timer serves reduce the power of healers/tanks as well as hold players accountable for mistakes. Make too many, and you cannot clear.

Let's say hypothetically they removed them in the current encounter design paradigm. How do you imagine the game would move forward? Knowing what I know, it'd shift to a meta where tanks and healers are brough and DPS classes are shunned because they do not bring any tools. Tanks would be brought because they can just rotate invulns and cheese mechanics, and healers would be brought to heal any incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

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What's not said here was they did this for RAIDERS, not casuals. That is, the raids and difficulty curve were so bad that even raiders who beat coil couldn't clear the raids in any real percentage. They tried relatively slow balancing attempts, and things like Thordan ex to help give little boosts, but they had to chuck it all out at the end because they made it too hard period. They found out really badly that the way the encounters are make an upper floor to how hard you can make it and not get 1% of the base to complete it.

It's not "make this so casuals can do it." The skill floor was high enough to make everyone struggle in their own niche save for the 1%. And te 1% even kind of burned out on ultimate; it took the same time as the hardest alex raids to down, despite the lower skill floor.