Dark Knight Megathread

DRK also has had this weird history with skill acquisition as well. Back in Stormblood Delirium, before it was changed to be an inner release clone (sort of), was gotten at level 62 but Bloodspiller was gotten at level 68? Then we still have Dark Missionary and Stalwart Soul being gotten at 72+, thus is unusable in synced content from most of the game. It is nice that there is finally going to be a change. I "want" to play DRK, and I still do even though I've been making fun of it all the time, but breadcrumbs will do. Maybe I can do deep dungeons on DRK and finally be able to use my invuln without a raising.

Delirium was a straight resource generation buff in Stormblood. There were near universal complaints at the time that it lacked burst value, which is why it was changed to its present form. The main limitation of relying on resource generation alone is that there's going to be a bottleneck on the rate that you can convert MP/blood into damage. Think about what you would do if you had unlimited resources at your disposal. You'd still do a Bloodspiller/Quietus on every GCD with an Edge/Flood between every GCD. More resources increases the length of your burst window, but doesn't change what you're doing during said burst. And again, this comes back to the fact that DRK has only 4 unique GCD actions in single target. But you're unlikely to see that changed mid expansion.

I think that focused feedback is critical. There's really no point in asking for a change to Delirium without having a plan on what it needs to change to. It's very easy to make things worse.

SB delirium wouldn't even function in the current game design where the resource management has be standardized to either an "aetherflow" system or 50 gauge spenders. I really think they should bring back Dark Arts but repurpose it to fit the current design but retain the concept of augmenting your gcd/cds. Some examples of how Dark Arts could work in 7.0.

-60 sec recast 2 charges.
-Gives 3 stacks of DA when used.
-1 stack of DA is consumed when appropriate action is used.

examples of actions affected by DA:
-Unmend = changes to Abyssal Drain target aoe.
-Souleater = MP restoration, increased potency
-Stalwart Soul = restores HP, cure potency
-Dark Mind = Magic defense increased to 25%
-Shadow Wall = Reflect damage (similar to vengeance)

DA still functions similar to how it was previously but since you gain stacks, you don't need to press the button every time you want to buff something. It's all automatic and it just gets used up as you do your rotations. It also doesn't add to the skill bloat as it simply makes the current tool kit better. It's similar to TBN in that its a one-button-does-all type of thing.

Also TBN should be put to 2 charges and the MP cost removed.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

-Dark Mind = Magic defense increased to 25%
-Shadow Wall = Reflect damage (similar to vengeance)

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1) Dark Mind's effect would never be used, even if it wasn't a dps loss due to your soul eater generating extra MP, which translates to more Edges. An extra 5% is completely & utterly laughable. Even when Dark Mind doubled its % from 15 -> 30 in HW/SB, the dps meta basically made that DA effect dead in the mud (hence the change in 4.3 that stripped almost every single defensive application of DA out in favor of pure offense, since the devs knew the reality of how flawed DA's design was in their game). Which brings me to my next point:

2) If DA is to ever be brought back, it can only effect Defensives, or offensives, never both. Time eternal in this game's life have tank players showed the devs that anytime you mix offensive & defensive resources/actions/etc together, the defensive side is completely ignored because the name of the game is dps > all. DA as it was in HW (and to a lesser extent, SB) cannot exist in the game's current design. it would need to be a modified version purely for defense (that does not use offensive resources) or purely offensive.

I think I'll layout a few simple things to start off with that most people can agree with or at the very least be neutral about.

Living dead needed a change for the longest time now. What could be changed? The problems is it's the only invuln in the game with an inherent death condition and punishes you for something out of your control. If your healer isn't on point, you die. If your healer is on point but is too quick to heal to 100% you lose the invuln effect, all the while you yourself do not have reliable ways to mitigate this on your own (In addition, Living dead is POORLY communicated by design what it does for healers unfamiliar with it. When I was leveling with someone new to healing they weren't sure how living dead functioned. Even when healers do, they cannot always reliably fulfil its demanding conditions). It's incredibly frustrating and most people would rather die than use it. Devs, use this as a basis for potential fixes.

AoE's are spells. I need not overexplain this: AoE's being spells means that people need to stack both skill speed and spell speed. The ONLY reason they remain spells I see is for obscure lore reasons; get rid of this and consolidate the action type so DRK isn't making Frankenstein builds.

Blood weapon. If you're not planning to rework how this skill works, make it stack based like literally everything else you've changed this expansion. If you are planning to rework it, people below probably have opinions.

Dark mind. Magic is a niche damage type in this game, making Dark mind a niche cooldown. Either outright replace the skill with something more regularly useable, or change it so it can be effective in all situations.

Action unlocks. Why are some basic essential skills unlocked so late for DRK? Why is it that Demon slaughter, mythril tempest, and prominence all unlock at level 40 in the base game but DRK has to wait until SHADOWBRINGERS LEVEL RANGE to unlock stalwart soul? Why is Dark missionary unlocked at level 76 when GNB gets heart of light (the exact same ability with a GNB coat) at 64? DRK Cannot participate in stormblood content or below with two very basic tank skills, but other tanks can.

These are just some of the most glaring issues I have with DRK, not even getting into what I think of it's moment to moment gameplay loop.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Delirium was a straight resource generation buff in Stormblood. There were near universal complaints at the time that it lacked burst value, which is why it was changed to its present form. The main limitation of relying on resource generation alone is that there's going to be a bottleneck on the rate that you can convert MP/blood into damage. Think about what you would do if you had unlimited resources at your disposal. You'd still do a Bloodspiller/Quietus on every GCD with an Edge/Flood between every GCD. More resources increases the length of your burst window, but doesn't change what you're doing during said burst. And again, this comes back to the fact that DRK has only 4 unique GCD actions in single target. But you're unlikely to see that changed mid expansion.

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That's totally depends of the number ratio not the design of the skill, if under Delirium you generate 1 Bloodspiller in a steady rate hardly they are going to be a spam fest like now with current design due the limitation of 2 before overflow wich it would be definetly better, less Spillers but more powerful and cohesive.

The whole "my burst value" (not trying to moke you or offend you) have no meaning now since DRK is just all burst and no downplay whatsoever is part of the main complains of why the job is a chore now.

For no mention they can turn Shadowbringer to become a weaponskill to support new designs anytime too, the skill is just fluff right now, same with abyssal drain make it a GCD too

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that focused feedback is critical. There's really no point in asking for a change to Delirium without having a plan on what it needs to change to. It's very easy to make things worse.

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I disagree with this part, even if you come with a design many would love to see SE would never take it or make something similar and rather they will do something else as they avoid the main complains on the new design, saying current Delirium is bad and should be changed to be nothing alike to another job mechanic and no more GCD spamming is more than enough to make them rework it to something unique and that have feel cohesive with the rest of the kit, heck even the JP complaint about it and had been ignored.

Apart I'm just tired of the "oh no they didn't did anything at all, dang more luck next expansion" no, if we want to DRK become better we need to insist on a rework now to get it as soon as possible so they are willing to do something now, have to flip a coin every 2-3 years just to find they didn't even flip it at all like now in EW is just allow them to ignore the problem forever, there is enough feedback already.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

Honestly, that's good enough for me.

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Ditto, I quite like the gameplay spare some quirks (mostly being a tad too busy with oGCDs, both for the opener and for mitigation all with TBN and Oblation being separate buttons). Fix Living Dead, give me some sustain so I don't have to apologize to healers in Expert for existing, put Blood Weapon on stacks (or just give it +1s) and we're good. Merge some oGCDs and we're golden.

There are a few options with Living Dead.

1) Living Dead has a shorter recast than Holmgang, UI elements show how much healing is required to cleanse the effect, and the death prevention effect no longer ends when you reach the healing target. This is my least favorite and still doesn't give the player any agency.
2) Living Dead is Holmgang, with the same recast.
3) Living Dead is Holmgang, but also gives you additional healing based on damage dealt and/or damage received while the effect is active.
4) Living Dead is Holmgang, but when the effect ends, it resets your HP back to the total it was at the time that you originally activated it.
5) Living Dead is Holmgang, but once you hit 1 HP it becomes an invuln. This is the point where you'd have to re-evaluate the recast relative to Superbolide.
6) Living Dead prevents any attack that would kill you, and heals you (up to X% of your max HP) instead. Attacks that wouldn't kill you still do full damage.
7) Living Dead prevents both damage and healing while it is active.

What won't work are invuln conditions that cost the player dps to use it. You could argue that the first suggestion should be off the table on that principle alone because it shifts the burden of responsibility and cost on to the healer. Solutions that reduce the amount of healing required are just variations on 1. I've also seen ideas similar to Warcraft's stagger mechanic (i.e. convert lethal damage into a DoT effect that you have to survive through), but that's still a nuisance to use on a tank that has weak self-healing. I think what I'd like to see is a button that the player doesn't feel guilty about pressing.

The simplest change for Blood Weapon is to just convert it to 5 stacks of 600 MP/10 blood and call it a day. Part of me wonders what would happen if Blood Weapon or Delirium gave you a 1.5 second GCD, but no, let's resist that thought for now.

Oblation is the most difficult problem to address. It's a great animation. But the effect is underwhelming. It feels like it was intended as an upgrade to TBN, except that they were concerned about the %DR effect preventing the bubble from popping. But what if we went with something thematically similar to the other tank's upgrades: i.e. If TBN breaks within X seconds, you gain an additional damage prevention effect +/- additional healing? Here's an example:

The Blackest Night: Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage totalling 25% of target's maximum HP. Duration 7s.
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Additional Effect: Grants Oblation to target. Duration 4s.
Oblation Effect: If barrier is completely absorbed, restores HP to target and creates a barrier which nullifies damage equaling HP restored. Cure Potency X. Duration Y.

So now if you use it on a very spiky hit like a tankbuster, you get more value out of it. That might make for a more interesting solution.

I have mixed feelings about Dark Mind and Dark Missionary. I think Dark Missionary and Heart of Light should be on a shorter recast than Shake and Veil, given that they're less powerful effects on top of being conditional to damage type. This is especially true after the buffs to both Shake and Veil this expansion which add in additional healing effects. I also feel that HoL/Missionary should have something to differentiate them from each other, even if its minor. I'd less inclined to do anything with Dark Mind, especially if the above issues are addressed. I understand that it's situational, but I wouldn't trade it for the likes of Camo, for example.

I'd forgotten to ask about the Weaponskill/Spell point. It's a broader issue that affects multiple jobs. That being said, DRK has all of 3 spells, of which two are only used in AoE. They should address this and look into creating a single 'Haste' stat that combines both Skill and Spell speed, but I don't mind waiting until 7.x for this.

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Originally Posted by shao32

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I think that you at least need to specify what the design problem is. Right now Delirium has you press Bloodspiller/Quietus three times. I don't think that qualifies as spam, especially when you consider the likes of Requiescat or Atonement. And again, this comes back to the fact that we really have only 4 single target weaponskills. If you're not pressing Bloodspiller, you're doing your base 1-2-3 combo. I don't know what permutation of these 4 GCDs is going to create an exciting burst window for you.

What you could do is this. Next expansion, make TBN directly give you a free Edge/Flood without granting Dark Arts. Have Edge and Flood instead grant you a Dark Arts stack. Introduce in two higher potency weaponskills that form a second combo which only can be accessed when Dark Arts or Delirium is active. That leaves you one action for a finisher of your choice to round everything off. Now you have more unique buttons to press. But the underlying issue isn't Delirium itself. It's that the job itself has only 3-4 unique GCDs to work with most of the time. That's why the design problem needs to be a specific one, or else you address the wrong issue.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that you at least need to specify what the design problem is. Right now Delirium has you press Bloodspiller/Quietus three times. I don't think that qualifies as spam, especially when you consider the likes of Requiescat or Atonement. And again, this comes back to the fact that we really have only 4 single target weaponskills. If you're not pressing Bloodspiller, you're doing your base 1-2-3 combo. I don't know what permutation of these 4 GCDs is going to create an exciting burst window for you.

What you could do is this. Next expansion, make TBN directly give you a free Edge/Flood without granting Dark Arts. Have Edge and Flood instead grant you a Dark Arts stack. Introduce in two higher potency weaponskills that form a second combo which only can be accessed when Dark Arts or Delirium is active. That leaves you one action for a finisher of your choice to round everything off. Now you have more unique buttons to press. But the underlying issue isn't Delirium itself. It's that the job itself has only 3-4 unique GCDs to work with most of the time. That's why the design problem needs to be a specific one, or else you address the wrong issue.

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Delirium himself is just part of the problem not the only one of course, Delirium and basically the Blackblood system problem is just a independent copypasted Inner release and rage system of WAR that is complety disconected fromt he rest of the skill just like everything on the job, basically the same with minimal differences like the crit stuff and WAR having a finished and DRK just having Living shadow, the spam is a issue for me i personally hate and yeah PLD is worse but PLD is for PLD mains and i never will try to main it so i never going to ask for changes about the job.

The thing is i don't have any problem if DRK have just a few GCD if the gameplay work in tandem with a extensive oGCD usage like SB more or less and HW something that current DRK doesnt, his 45s of soul eater downtime is painfully awful bcs of that, thats why my feedback consist in mostly spread the oGCD and more specific the MP oGCD usage since you can switch Flood and Edge any time with TBN and get refund the cost making his mitigation being smooth anytime but i agree DRK can get more GCD and turning Shadowbringer into a GCD could help now since is just fluf just like Abyssal drain/Carve and spit, plunge and Salted earth + salt and darkness offering nothing to the gameplay but brainless damage.

In resume i want the blackblood system and Delirium reworked bcs is basically WAR stuff, it works? yeah it works but that doesn't mean its fine have the exactly the same thing on both jobs, DRK being a downgraded WAR complains come mostly for that mechanic so is a problem that affects his identity. I want more GCD? yeah sure i want but at the same time i consider Shadowbringer being a waste mechanically as an oGCD when could be that extra GCD we need and not have to wait 2 more years for a new combo or just that independent GCD we want, and i want more oGCD usage across the rotation so the downtime is not awfully empty specially MP related oGCD bcs can allow being switched easily with TBN anytime and add Darkside upkeep gameplay to make it more interesting and not monotonous like now.
The burst of the job can be with Living shadow offering someting more that just being a DOT +Carve,Abysal, Plunge and Salted alone, and stop having hollow traits like unmend trait and 2 traits for Living shadow, i want a job that is not a copy pasted WAR that consist in just 1 combo + inner release and a mountain of fluff oGCD usage for a small fraction of the 60s loop and i firmly belive they can archive that easily if they just care to put some effort and time on DRK desing with what they have now.

I think dev believe Dark Missionary and heart of Light are stronger than Veil and Shake when the raid wide attack hits more than 1 time which is why it didn't get a buff since 6.0


Also why we need to go so far as to merge spell speed and weaponskill speed to single stat when you can give Dark Knight and Paladin a trait that "reduces spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay"?