Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's sad, but "healer became too good, don't want them anymore" is reflected in the game too.

The better you become at the healer role, the worse you are treated. You'll get much less comms, you'll get told off for being a filthy dps healer, the devs will utterly ignore you and in the grand scheme of things the extra rdps you add won't be noticed. It's the least rewarding role to be good at, you're actually better off being a Sylphie who lives in ignorance, spam healing health bars to full when there's no danger and doing very little damage, because you'll be praised for it and the devs will pat you on the head as their favorite child.

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https://c3.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-medi...yyhxbdjlhhoauw

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Originally Posted by Ixon

https://c3.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-medi...yyhxbdjlhhoauw

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...12/039/ed9.jpg

"Healer was too good"

Sure. The correct answer is "healing mechanics are too weak for any middle of the ground healer, best hide it by replacing the midcore healer with a worse one and claim all is fine".

I have so many thoughts about this they're going in circles and not computing.

- Why not take the information you're getting from the healer?
- If you want to test it from a casual side why have a serious DPS as well and not replace them?
- If the serious DPS doesn't matter, why should the midcore Healer?
- Why not have a full casual set, a full midcore set and a full serious set?
- No seriously, why not?

So we have the lead developer being dismissive to healer concerns.

Followed then by the lead developer removing someone from the testing team for getting competent at the role they're playing.

W.T.literal.F.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

If your developer can get better at healing, chances are, the player can get better at it too. Why replace them? (see: unsubscribe for our version of "replace") Why do you have so little faith in your own playerbase? I didn't realize they were as jaded as we were.

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This is so unbelievably true.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

"Healer was too good"

Sure. The correct answer is "healing mechanics are too weak for any middle of the ground healer, best hide it by replacing the midcore healer with a worse one and claim all is fine".

I have so many thoughts about this they're going in circles and not computing.

- Why not take the information you're getting from the healer?
- If you want to test it from a casual side why have a serious DPS as well and not replace them?
- If the serious DPS doesn't matter, why should the midcore Healer?
- Why not have a full casual set, a full midcore set and a full serious set?
- No seriously, why not?

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What I'm shocked at is that this sounds like they aren't testing the game with more than one person per role in any piece of conent. That is truly insane. I understand that is about how many people are needed to make final judgments on balance, but to do all the playtesting? What the actual.

I understand that they want to keep tanks and healers accessible, but it sounds like they aren't seeking input at all on anyone who intends to main the job.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

lol

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Says the guy who believes this "everybody pickin on me" story. Whose boot exactly am I licking when I don't 100% believe this guys sob story of how every time he goes healer it's like virtual oppression?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

What I'm shocked at is that this sounds like they aren't testing the game with more than one person per role in any piece of conent. That is truly insane. I understand that is about how many people are needed to make final judgments on balance, but to do all the playtesting? What the actual.

I understand that they want to keep tanks and healers accessible, but it sounds like they aren't seeking input at all on anyone who intends to main the job.

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judging from everything yoshi p done:

- cutting ast and sch skills at 5.0
- ast getting sleeve draw and mp regen issues fix only at 5.3
- sch stuck with clunky fairy till 6.0
- sch job trailer had the least action in any of his showcase.
- confirming in a LL that they read healers feedback and straight up ignore them.
- whm changes at EW and 0 adjustment to thin air nerfs and mp issues.

and now the tester healer , in the dungeon testing group that consist of yoshida and another executive as dps, is being replaced cause he is too good(and by too good meaning he done primal EX).

it isn't sounds like they aren't seeking input, its flat out declared it and basically just flat out admitting the healer roles is for afk, dumb players and they aren't even bothering to invest in actual testing for them.(probably tanks as well).

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

judging from everything yoshi p done:

- cutting ast and sch skills at 5.0
- ast getting sleeve draw and mp regen issues fix only at 5.3
- sch stuck with clunky fairy till 6.0
- sch job trailer had the least action in any of his showcase.
- confirming in a LL that they read healers feedback and straight up ignore them.
- whm changes at EW and 0 adjustment to thin air nerfs and mp issues.

and now the tester healer , in the dungeon testing group that consist of yoshida and another executive as dps, is being replaced cause he is too good(and by too good meaning he done primal EX).

it isn't sounds like they aren't seeking input, its flat out declared it and basically just flat out admitting the healer roles is for afk, dumb players and they aren't even bothering to invest in actual testing for them.(probably tanks as well).

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A tad presumptive and hyperbolic, but I feel I have to agree with the sentiment. Which is very depressing. There is so much potential in this game for, if not pure healers, *combat healers*. Imagine:

* WHM having a suite of wind/water/earth spells to rotate through in addition to holy bombs.
* AST having a massive Nuclear Fusion bomb and a Nuclear Decay DoT, or maybe more delayed spells to plot out like with Stellar Detonation and Microcosmos.
* SCH getting back Bane and Miasma and becoming the "chemist" job everyone wants.
* SGE getting more Addersting triggers and an AoE DoT and ST bombs to spend them on.

And these are things that I literally just came up with in two seconds, but they would improve healers like tenfold. Because literally even one more damage spam would double their job complexity.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Says the guy who believes this "everybody pickin on me" story. Whose boot exactly am I licking when I don't 100% believe this guys sob story of how every time he goes healer it's like virtual oppression?

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The point you're missing is that people do not recognize what a good healer looks like.

And yeah, that is very reflected in the game.

I've had tanks not realize what Essential Dignity does. I have MANY, MANY cohealers who don't recognize or play around the idea that I'm using Earthly Star even in Extremes and Savages.

I have fellow WHM and AST follow up with Medica 2 and A. Helios when I just casted Celestial Opposition.

It is 100% easy to gloss over a good healer, who actually uses their oGCDs like they're supposed to because they do not have a cast bar. So when the not so great healer who has been GCD healing from start to finish (which I'll point out they're hard casting and thus visible to anyone even glancing at a party bar) gets the credit, I am not surprised.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

judging from everything yoshi p done:

- cutting ast and sch skills at 5.0
- ast getting sleeve draw and mp regen issues fix only at 5.3
- sch stuck with clunky fairy till 6.0
- sch job trailer had the least action in any of his showcase.
- confirming in a LL that they read healers feedback and straight up ignore them.
- whm changes at EW and 0 adjustment to thin air nerfs and mp issues.

and now the tester healer , in the dungeon testing group that consist of yoshida and another executive as dps, is being replaced cause he is too good(and by too good meaning he done primal EX).

it isn't sounds like they aren't seeking input, its flat out declared it and basically just flat out admitting the healer roles is for afk, dumb players and they aren't even bothering to invest in actual testing for them.(probably tanks as well).

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Nah it's just healers. Tanks are fine. Great, even. They tend to give us what we want.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Nah it's just healers. Tanks are fine. Great, even. They tend to give us what we want.

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Is that why DRK players have had to ask for 6 years for a LD change and they’re only just now getting it.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

https://c3.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-medi...yyhxbdjlhhoauw

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you and people who think like you are exactly why this community is becoming more and more of a laughing stock outside our bubble. thank you.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Is that why DRK players have had to ask for 6 years for a LD change and they’re only just now getting it.

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Paladins and Warriors always get what they want, though, and PLD as a job only ever gets more complex and interesting with time. DRK is an unfortunate outlier but tanks are otherwise only ever treated very well, ever since Stormblood. That's like saying they never pay attention to casters since Summoner is a mess.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Says the guy who believes this "everybody pickin on me" story. Whose boot exactly am I licking when I don't 100% believe this guys sob story of how every time he goes healer it's like virtual oppression?

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Except Liam’s story is true. As someone who has played healers in this game for over six years, it is an incredibly thankless job. And you can be popping off damage while keeping everyone healed and not letting a single person die, but your coheal who is half AFK, uses HoTs or other pointless heals while everyone is at full HP, and dies repeatedly walks away with the credit for keeping people alive because they spammed their GCDs. I’ve had co-healers in the past that accuse me of never healing in EX or Savage because I focus oGCD priority first and not GCD heals. The irony is I’m outhealing them and outDPSing them. But I can’t say that since parsers are the devil.

I’ve done test runs with my friend where we do virtually no damage, GCD heal, and basically stand around waiting for damage—and we get more recognition than when we are playing more offensively. I’ve also done runs with them where they basically deal damage while I heal and raise, but they get comms and I don’t. And vise versa. Sometimes I get more comms on WHM because WHM has to GCD heal over a healer like SCH/SGE, or even AST.

You think it’s an exaggeration but it is very much the case in this game. People don’t recognize a good healer when they see one. Unless they’re also a healer main.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

The point you're missing is that people do not recognize what a good healer looks like.

And yeah, that is very reflected in the game.

I've had tanks not realize what Essential Dignity does. I have MANY, MANY cohealers who don't recognize or play around the idea that I'm using Earthly Star even in Extremes and Savages.

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Another example:

Paladins using Clemency to heal themselves when they dip below 60%, meanwhile a Recitation > Excogitation is just sitting there ready to pop off from a decently played Scholar.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Paladins and Warriors always get what they want, though, and PLD as a job only ever gets more complex and interesting with time. DRK is an unfortunate outlier but tanks are otherwise only ever treated very well, ever since Stormblood. That's like saying they never pay attention to casters since Summoner is a mess.

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Considering YoshiP's latest famitsu interview yesterday, that some 6.1 job nerfs are coming along with others getting enhancements, no one is safe. But I imagine Reaper and Warrior getting some trimmings, especially their heal potency.

As for DRK, I figure they'll lower Living Dead to something like 75% healed and that'd be enough. That would be fine to me, as its the lower level healers that suffer the most. The solution of "dump every stack you somehow have" for Sage and Scholar is old.

As for the ultimate subject, well he makes it sound it's loaded and have to do your jobs to fullest abilities, and 4-5 months for a casual group. Normal things heard last time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Meanwhile, I’ve actually done test runs of stuff where I barely DPS as a healer, play the full Medica II uptime game, and get 4 or 5 commendations. Just a huge fml.

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I've done a few of those too. I did a P2N recently where all I used was Medica II, Regen and Raise. Nothing else. 3 comms. By the end I was hoping someone would call me out.

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Originally Posted by ThivraK

you and people who think like you are exactly why this community is becoming more and more of a laughing stock outside our bubble. thank you.

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It's ironic because he basically proves my point.

It's not like we even want praise or comms or whatever. Good healers just want to enjoy the game, have fun and be a useful part of the team. It's more that it gets frustrating when you do your best only to be labeled as an evil dps spammer and ignored by the creators of the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's sad, but "healer became too good, don't want them anymore" is reflected in the game too.

The better you become at the healer role, the worse you are treated. You'll get much less comms, you'll get told off for being a filthy dps healer, the devs will utterly ignore you and in the grand scheme of things the extra rdps you add won't be noticed. It's the least rewarding role to be good at, you're actually better off being a Sylphie who lives in ignorance, spam healing health bars to full when there's no danger and doing very little damage, because you'll be praised for it and the devs will pat you on the head as their favorite child.

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^This, is at best, an over exaggeration of a legitimate issue within FFXIV. No one, in the history of forever, has ever said healers get less coms. In fact, people will legitimately queue healer for the sake of getting more coms because more often than not, they are the standard person to give coms to. No one in the last few expansions from about SB forward, minus a handful of new people who end up on the front page of Tales from Duty finder, tells healers off for being a "filthy dps". In fact, go check Tales from Duty Finder right now, and the majority of topics involving healers are the opposite, wanting healers to DPS who choose not to.

Tell you what, go into PF and tell me how many "Healers aren't allowed to DPS" there are vs "Tanks Damage Down Strat". Cause I still see the later almost everyday. People here have twisted what should be a neutral discussion to address issues they have with a job or role into their own personal pity party. Someone tell me how this statement so many are choosing to support HELPS anyone? Legitimately. Who here realistically expects a dev to read this and go "It's ok lil baby, I'll make sure those big meanies won't hurt you and here is 100k gil for every dungeon and if the party doesn't apologize for you being a healer then they get kicked." Heaven forbid people like myself want meaningful discussions instead of boo hoos from someone who seemingly hasn't cleared the raid tier as a healer?

Yes, a good healer CAN be overlooked almost as much as a good DPS unless you are using the not allowed third party software. But just because no one is consistently thanking you for your actions, and just because you didn't get a com, doesn't devalue your worth. A bad or new player isn't going to recognize a good ANYTHING regardless, so why does it matter if that person doesn't give you a com? I've run a lot of content on multiple jobs and roles and have been given about the same treatment on everything. I've gotten all or none of the coms being a tank or healer doing the minimum or maximum amount of effort, as have many other people I have played with. I still don't know why anyone is basing their value by coms. Who cares. I've given them to people just cause I liked their name.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Paladins using Clemency to heal themselves when they dip below 60%, meanwhile a Recitation > Excogitation is just sitting there ready to pop off from a decently played Scholar.

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Love this as argument. "Dear SE, today I had a bad or casual tank player use an ability without fully respecting my own ability. I would like a healers union to ban this player for doing my role and not respecting my effort in a dungeon no one cares about." It's comments like this that actually very heavily detract from meaningful discussion on legitimate issues. "Dear SE, I popped TBN as a DRK and the WHM put a Divine Benison which cause my TBN to not pop and therefor I want them banned because they did not respect my job." See how that sounds?

Y'all can tear this apart, I don't care. I have tried, over and over again, in earnest to steer the conversations towards actual discussions. I have provided breakdowns, my own thought, thoughts of others, and have on the rare occasion had decent discussion on how SE can make healers specifically more enjoyable. But this ^ type of stuff detracts, deters, and is generally unhelpful when it comes to legitimate discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Bootlickery .

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Be honest, how much is SE paying you to provide them with such quality spit shining?

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Originally Posted by Ixon

snip

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I have to ask: do you actually play healers? I want an honest answer. I’m only asking because you speak like someone who does not, and as someone who does not understand why healer mains are so salty and fed up with the way they are treated. Not just by the community for being shat on for playing well (read: DPSing as a healer, not having a 79% overheal from 100% Medica II uptime, not spamming Cure I in EW dungeons—I could go on), but also by the developers. Who have let healer gameplay stagnate for years all because of the Sylphies in the community, or other poor healers that simply play badly. Who continuously tell healers to wait for this, wait for that, maybe next expansion—oh wait! We need to “balance the healers” so please wait another 2+ years…

Citing the Tales from DF is poor here—of course people there want healers that actively contribute because they aren’t part of the community who thinks it’s okay and/or acceptable for healers to be virtually AFK most of a fight. If you notice, they also think “you pull it, you tank it” is a trash attitude, yet people on other subreddits, here, and on other platforms advocate for it. Same as they advocate for healers to mostly heal and “you don’t have to deal damage if it stresses you out because you’re a healer FIRST”.


And in response to your clearing a tier on a healer: I can’t speak for anyone else in this thread, but I have. So if that’s your criterion, I’ve met it. I’ve also routinely healed Extremes since I started playing FFXIV, and I cleared UCoB on AST. I have the experience, and I speak from my experience. Which seems to be shared by other healer mains.

I honestly don’t care about commendations. It’s not about collecting them or any nonsense of the sort. It’s more so about the fact when you’re the one obviously carrying your cohealer, and they walk away with the pat on the back while your efforts go unrecognized. I have seen it happen plenty. I have been on the receiving end of being accused of “only DPSing” or chadding my cohealer, when the reality is I’m doing the brunt of the work. I just don’t see the need to waste my mana and my GCD on 100% HoT uptime or using Physick to top off Bobby the Bumbling Bard because they got hit by an AOE that Eos will be more than enough to top them off.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

No one in the last few expansions from about SB forward, minus a handful of new people who end up on the front page of Tales from Duty finder, tells healers off for being a "filthy dps"

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Had a Tank chastise me when playing SCH in E1N for not using Addlo/Succor and having the WHM do all the healing, while Seraph was out.

DNC/BLM get upset with me in P3N for not healing them when they're standing in Devouring Brand's cross path.

Legitimately carried 2 Tanks and myself thru 89 trial when I gave up rezzing the 4 DPS and cohealer off the floor multiple times with LB 3 and chain rezzing, DPS spamming "Rez me" endlessly despite having died to the exact same mechanic for the entire encounter. 1 Comms from dead co-healer whom turned out to be in my FC and apologized for their poor performance.

Those are my most recent within the last 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Tell you what, go into PF and tell me how many "Healers aren't allowed to DPS" there are vs "Tanks Damage Down Strat". Cause I still see the later almost everyday. People here have twisted what should be a neutral discussion to address issues they have with a job or role into their own personal pity party. Someone tell me how this statement so many are choosing to support HELPS anyone? Legitimately. Who here realistically expects a dev to read this and go "It's ok lil baby, I'll make sure those big meanies won't hurt you and here is 100k gil for every dungeon and if the party doesn't apologize for you being a healer then they get kicked." Heaven forbid people like myself want meaningful discussions instead of boo hoos from someone who seemingly hasn't cleared the raid tier as a healer?

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Are you ...quite ok?

I'm not looking to start arguments so you're wasting your time if you want one, but considering how over-the-top aggressive you're being I assume you're having a bad day or irl is being rough or something? Hope that gets better.

Tank damage down strat is ridiculous and I'm happy to support tanks in being treated better too. I'm not sure why you quoted me on comms, check my post just above. Also my static doesn't log our runs publically and I'll never claim to be an amazing player, but I have an Ultimate down and several tiers before. We're just here to share opinions, it's fine if you think I'm talking nonsense, it's how I personally feel.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

^This, is at best, an over exaggeration of a legitimate issue within FFXIV. No one, in the history of forever, has ever said healers get less coms. In fact, people will legitimately queue healer for the sake of getting more coms because more often than not, they are the standard person to give coms to. No one in the last few expansions from about SB forward, minus a handful of new people who end up on the front page of Tales from Duty finder, tells healers off for being a "filthy dps". In fact, go check Tales from Duty Finder right now, and the majority of topics involving healers are the opposite, wanting healers to DPS who choose not to.

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I can only speak for myself, but I got comms far more regularly as a Tank than as a Healer. Though I suppose it really depends on whether you are running dungeons vs. trials.

My understanding has generally been that, absent any actual merit, Tanks and Healers comm each other, while DPS tend to comm each other but often give it to the Tank if the other DPS is terrible, or to the Healer if they were the one sucking and needed all the rezzing. Usually only abnormally stellar or abysmal performances change up this prioritization, or someone who has been particularly communicative and helpful in completing the run.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Y'all can tear this apart, I don't care. I have tried, over and over again, in earnest to steer the conversations towards actual discussions. I have provided breakdowns, my own thought, thoughts of others, and have on the rare occasion had decent discussion on how SE can make healers specifically more enjoyable. But this ^ type of stuff detracts, deters, and is generally unhelpful when it comes to legitimate discussion.

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Which is why I try to have a civil discussion whenever I do quote you.

Fact is though, I am tired. We're all tired. We are literally treading the same problems and arguments over and over at this point. As you can see.

Any and all discussions on this issue have been brought up well before this page/post and can be seen already. Hells the FIRST POST of healer issues that can be found here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5348029

Is all the devs really have to look at. Nothing else. There is no bashing. There is nothing more than clear issues plaguing all three healers and what each of the mains would like to see in regards to changes.

Give me an explanation as to why the dev team has not looked at it in depth and given us some of what is on that page?

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

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The best answer I can come up with is that they think they are somehow sparing healers party grief by making sure everyone knows their damage is negligible.

Which, look at where that slippery slope led. Negligible DPS in a DPS-focused game doesn't spare healers party grief...it spares parties the need to have healers at all.

Instead of making the game easier for healers it has made it harder. In that it is hard for them to even get invited to the table, let alone find something to do once they get there.

I think the disconnect in today's conversation here is the fixation on the comms themselves, rather than what they *represent*. A comm by itself is a meaningless +1 Facebook like that doesn't necessarily indicate whether you've done well, poorly, or otherwise. At the same time, giving a commendation to player A instead of player B usually indicates that, in some way, so long as your choice wasn't "closest name to my mouse cursor", you think A performed better than B.

The point the healer vets are making here isn't "boohoo I didn't get a commendation". It's "I notice that every time I go into a 24-man, commendations come flowing in if I play like a Sylphie, and they don't when I play with actual skill". Which is a clue that the wider community seems to believe that terrible Sylphie gameplay is "good" healing, and skillful healing is not.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

The point the healer vets are making here isn't "boohoo I didn't get a commendation". It's "I notice that every time I go into a 24-man, commendations come flowing in if I play like a Sylphie, and they don't when I play with actual skill". Which is a clue that the wider community seems to believe that terrible Sylphie gameplay is "good" healing, and skillful healing is not.

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I don't think that is going to change much. Even if we completely revamped healers with the understanding that they are "combat medics," the fact is that most DPS are smooth-brains, and many likely think that healers would just play DPS if that was what they wanted to do. Which is horrible logic, if only because 1) some of use like to do things *other* than DPS or strictly healing and 2) the game is literally designed so that a quarter of us are *required* to have a healing role--"not every little girl gets to be what they want, the world cannot support that many ballerinas."

And yes, I am implying that Yoshi-P is probably stuck in that rut of thinking as well. But I don't think the casual DPS attitude of total healer-obliviousness is ever going to go away. That is asking too much of the population at large.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Give me an explanation as to why the dev team has not looked at it in depth and given us some of what is on that page?

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

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Yoshida's statements about healers have been a real-life version of that "guy putting on clown makeup" meme.

"The SCH is doing nothing but DPS and forcing the poor WHMs to heal." (Provably false if you spend five minutes looking at logs for any fight.)

"We couldn't really do anything with SCH." (Ignoring multiple threads offering suggestions on improving SCH, not to mention ignoring the possibility of just giving them back their damn DoTs.)

"If you want fun, engaging content as a healer, go play Ultimate." (Because it's apparently okay for an entire role to be boring to play in 95% of the game's content, and only the tank and DPS jobs are allowed to have fun.)

"Oh yeah, we kicked the healer out of our playtesting group for being too good." (Were you afraid they might discover the same problems also discovered by any healer with more brains than a bowl of lukewarm oatmeal? Or do you just sincerely believe that all healers, everywhere, are Epsilon-Minus Semi-Morons?)

What I said before has been proven true: all decisions about healing in this game are made from the POV of the healed, not the healer. As long as YoshiderP's BLM gets healed to full after every little boo-boo, he sees nothing wrong with the role. Not only does the man clearly not understand how healers are played in his own game, he also clearly has no interest in the role whatsoever.

Referencing his famous GDC slide from eight years ago ("Running an MMO is like running a country"), while he might live in the same country (game) as his subjects (players), he sure as hell doesn't live in the same province as the healers. He's the guy in Idaho wondering why Chicagoans complain about crime being so high when his town is perfectly safe. And if he doesn't want to play healers in his own game, why the hell should we? I quit healing three years ago. The "Has anyone quit healing?" thread on the healer board has reached 109 pages. Skilled players are dropping the role because it's boring and the devs have made it very obvious they don't care. At some point, this is going to seriously hurt the game, just as Blizzard's overconfidence and arrogance hurt WoW.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't think that is going to change much. Even if we completely revamped healers with the understanding that they are "combat medics," the fact is that most DPS are smooth-brains, and many likely think that healers would just play DPS if that was what they wanted to do. Which is horrible logic, if only because 1) some of use like to do things *other* than DPS or strictly healing and 2) the game is literally designed so that a quarter of us are *required* to have a healing role--"not every little girl gets to be what they want, the world cannot support that many ballerinas."

And yes, I am implying that Yoshi-P is probably stuck in that rut of thinking as well. But I don't think the casual DPS attitude of total healer-obliviousness is ever going to go away. That is asking too much of the population at large.

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It's not going to change; that's been the community's view for a long time. It's also an important, revealing piece of information: if you think about the healing role from the perspective of someone who holds that ignorant, smooth-brained attitude toward healers, pretty much every single design choice Square Enix makes with respect to the role falls into place.

It's why I was explaining that pointing to the commendations and going "hurrrr, why are you complaining about not getting commendations" is a mischaracterization of the argument, because it's not about comms. It's about the community's ignorant attitude toward how skilled healers play. Ixon seems to want all of us to agree that healers aren't going to change, that it's not that bad, that we're all a bunch of dramatic whiners making half of it up.

We've been complaining about this since the last half of HEAVENSWARD. Maybe, just maybe, we know how healers work because we play them, and the people making decisions about them or incredulously snarking at our opinions on them don't.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

The "Has anyone quit healing?" thread on the healer board has reached 109 pages. Skilled players are dropping the role because it's boring and the devs have made it very obvious they don't care. At some point, this is going to seriously hurt the game, just as Blizzard's overconfidence and arrogance hurt WoW.

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This is exactly why they're expanding Trusts.

I know im being too much of the pessimistic person but should we really care at this point? Yoship doesn't and a large part of the community is apathetic to the situation so it feels kinda pointless and futile.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I know im being too much of the pessimistic person but should we really care at this point? Yoship doesn't and a large part of the community is apathetic to the situation so it feels kinda pointless and futile.

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A quote came to mind as my students are reading about him.

"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not."
-- Dr. Seuss, "The Lorax"

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I know im being too much of the pessimistic person but should we really care at this point? Yoship doesn't and a large part of the community is apathetic to the situation so it feels kinda pointless and futile.

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Make them care, then. Be loud about it, in-game and out of game. Constantly mention the shitty comments the director has had. Mention how boring it is a lot. Post on social media about it. Post everwhere about it. Be loud and annoying and try to sway the general consensus this way. The squeaky wheel gets the grease after all. Yell from the mountaintops about how shit healer is in this game, if you have to. Just make it known and heard, over and over and over, until the devs actually do something about it. Hell, bring it up every time someone talks about the game anywhere, if you really want to drive it home.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I know im being too much of the pessimistic person but should we really care at this point? Yoship doesn't and a large part of the community is apathetic to the situation so it feels kinda pointless and futile.

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At this point, we have two options left. Be as loud and constant as possible so these complaints become increasingly difficult to dismiss, or quit the role entirely to force change. The latter is unlikely to work due to healers being necessary for queues. The fact this thread is still going though is a genuine positive. It's keeping attention on the issue.

Also, it may or may not be worth mentioning, but in the new Crystal Conflict PVP mode, healers are pretty much unnecessary as per the famitsu interview that was recently released.

There's not a whole lot that was said about it, but paraphrasing from what I remember, the interviewer basically asked that since every class would have it's own healing ability, were healers not necessary? And Yoshida's answer was quite flatly "Yes" and he went on a bit to say that keeping people unable to fight was a big point of the content and healers would still have healing abilities because.. they're healers.. (this info actually comes from the previous question, but still... it's kinda given =p)

I don't really play much in the way of PVP content so I don't know how many people care about this, but if healers are unnecessary in PVP and even in PVP they're supposed to get healing abilities... and presumably their 1 dps skill... wouldn't having healers be more of a detriment to the party? *shrug* I honestly don't know. Part of me wants to say no since if you don't need healers, more damage would definitely be better... but... I dunno.

Here is the relevant quote:

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――全ジョブが回復手段を持つということは、ヒーラー自体が必須ではないということでしょうか？
If all jobs have the ability to heal themselves, are healers, themselves, not necessary?

吉田はい。クリスタルコンフリクトでは、“マップ中央に存在しているクリスタルの塔を相手の陣地に押し込めば勝ち”という仕組みなので、相手を戦闘不能にすることは、クリスタルを運ぶ上で大きな要素ですが、それ自体が勝敗に直結するようにはしていません。大事なポイントで相手を止められるか、という陣取りゲームに近い遊びになっています。ちなみにゲームが不利な陣営のほうにショートカットが用意されたりするので、それを利用するのもポイントですね。

Yes. In Crystal Conflict, the main point is to get the crystal in the middle of the map to your opponent's area. Rendering your opponents unable to fight will be necessary in order to move the crystal, but it (killing your opponents) won't be needed to achieve victory. It's a gameplay similar to capturing and stopping your opponents at key areas. Another thing to note is that the team that is at a disadvantage will have shortcuts available for their use, too.

- https://www.famitsu.com/news/202203/31256409.html

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Sorry for the rough translation, I'm a bit distracted right now. >< Anyway, take this how you will. As a non PVP'er I don't have much opinion either way it just seems kinda "meh" to create a whole style of content where healers not being necessary seems to be one of the points.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

Yoshida's statements about healers have been a real-life version of that "guy putting on clown makeup" meme.

"The SCH is doing nothing but DPS and forcing the poor WHMs to heal." (Provably false if you spend five minutes looking at logs for any fight.)

"We couldn't really do anything with SCH." (Ignoring multiple threads offering suggestions on improving SCH, not to mention ignoring the possibility of just giving them back their damn DoTs.)

"If you want fun, engaging content as a healer, go play Ultimate." (Because it's apparently okay for an entire role to be boring to play in 95% of the game's content, and only the tank and DPS jobs are allowed to have fun.)

"Oh yeah, we kicked the healer out of our playtesting group for being too good." (Were you afraid they might discover the same problems also discovered by any healer with more brains than a bowl of lukewarm oatmeal? Or do you just sincerely believe that all healers, everywhere, are Epsilon-Minus Semi-Morons?)

What I said before has been proven true: all decisions about healing in this game are made from the POV of the healed, not the healer. As long as YoshiderP's BLM gets healed to full after every little boo-boo, he sees nothing wrong with the role. Not only does the man clearly not understand how healers are played in his own game, he also clearly has no interest in the role whatsoever.

Referencing his famous GDC slide from eight years ago ("Running an MMO is like running a country"), while he might live in the same country (game) as his subjects (players), he sure as hell doesn't live in the same province as the healers. He's the guy in Idaho wondering why Chicagoans complain about crime being so high when his town is perfectly safe. And if he doesn't want to play healers in his own game, why the hell should we? I quit healing three years ago. The "Has anyone quit healing?" thread on the healer board has reached 109 pages. Skilled players are dropping the role because it's boring and the devs have made it very obvious they don't care. At some point, this is going to seriously hurt the game, just as Blizzard's overconfidence and arrogance hurt WoW.

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This is the heart of the problem. Yoshi P doesn’t play healers and most of the dev team doesn’t heal. They also don’t seem to care about making healing engaging to anyone except people who’ve never played a video game before.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

At this point, we have two options left. Be as loud and constant as possible so these complaints become increasingly difficult to dismiss, or quit the role entirely to force change. The latter is unlikely to work due to healers being necessary for queues. The fact this thread is still going though is a genuine positive. It's keeping attention on the issue.

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The latter will never work because ffxiv gains new players who don’t play mmos and will eat up new healing faster than it loses veteran healers.

Job changes presented in todays Letter:

WHM
-Cure III and Asylum's ranges will be increased to 10 yalms
-Liturgy of the Bell will now be able to manually detonated for heals based on the number of remaining stacks

SCH
-Sacred Soil's range has increased to 10 yalms
-Expedience's sprint effect has been reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.

...That's all? :/

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Job changes presented in todays Letter:

WHM
-Cure III and Asylum's ranges will be increased to 10 yalms
-Liturgy of the Bell will now be able to manually detonated for heals based on the number of remaining stacks

SCH
-Sacred Soil's range has increased to 10 yalms
-Expedience's sprint effect has been reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.

...That's all? :/

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4 changes that are mostly irrelevant/qol and do not tackle the problems healers have at all, did you expect something else from these devs?

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

4 changes that are mostly irrelevant/qol and do not tackle the problems healers have at all, did you expect something else from these devs?

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I don't know if it would have been worse or better if they just left these for the patch notes instead of showing them... :B