Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It was never about average damage more about but what a DRK was doing. During every minute a Paladin is hitting 12 unique keys with the majority being different gcd keys. In comparison, in most minutes the Dark is only hitting 9 unique keys with the majority being ogcd keys.

Also your DRK and WAR potency numbers are inflated because you just added the numbers from the Fell Cleaves and Bloodspillers when factoring the damage gain from those two buffs while also leaving out the 50% increase in damage to Holy Spirit and (access to) Confiteor from using Requiscat.

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1-2-3 combo
bloodspiller
CnS
AD
Edge
Plunge
BW
Delirium

That's actually 10 keys. And then, if you extend this to "per 90 seconds" it goes up to 11 keys. And 12 keys at "per 2 minutes". All while PLD doesn't change if you go beyond 60s.

Now, the pacing for DRK does leave something to be desired, I'll give you that. Those first 15 seconds of each minute are really busy, then things calm down for a while. I could totally get behind reducing the recast on AD, CnS, and SE, while also reducing their potency. I think a 30s recast on AD and CnS would be amazing. 60s on SE would be great.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

That's actually 10 keys. And then, if you extend this to "per 90 seconds" it goes up to 11 keys. And 12 keys at "per 2 minutes". All while PLD doesn't change if you go beyond 60s.

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Exactly, you need to extend to two minutes if you want to use 12 differents keys, whereas PLD use them every minute.

Also during those two minutes, you mostly repeat the same 3 GCDs sequence, whereas PLD never uses the same 3 GCDs sequence back to back except during the 4 Holy Spirit spam.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Exactly, you need to extend to two minutes if you want to use 12 differents keys, whereas PLD use them every minute.

Also during those two minutes, you mostly repeat the same 3 GCDs sequence, whereas PLD never uses the same 3 GCDs sequence back to back except during the 4 Holy Spirit spam.

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But shrink that window to 10s (an opener), and DRK are hitting more keys than a PLD. PLD does maybe 8 keys (HS, 1-2-3, Intervene, CoS, SW, and FoF). DRK does 10 (1-2-3, BW, Edge, AD, CnS, SE, LS, and Plunge). Over the course of an entire fight, PLD and DRK are pushing the same amount of different keys for an offensive rotation. PLDs push their keys in a more uniform fashion, whereas DRK have their key presses front loaded on the minute. PLD have to not screw up their GCD rotation, or it's big dps loss (they either clip the DoT to re-up it in a FoF window, or they let it fall off and re-up outside FoF), but they don't have to worry about overcapping MP or Oath guage (they only use MP for damage inside requiescat, and Oath isn't involved in dps). DRK are inverted--they still don't want to mess up their GCD rotation, but it's super short, so if they do, it's not a big loss. However, they need to be vigilant about not overcapping MP or Blood gauge, as doing so is costing them dps.

Recently, I've been splitting my level 80 play time between these two classes, as I can't decide which one I like more. They both require effort, but in different ways.

I kinda wish Salted Earth had been removed and we got to keep Dark Passenger instead, with it being re-tuned and made free to fulfill the same "this off-gcd works in both aoe and single target" purpose Salted Earth has. My reasoning for this being that, while Salted Earth can be put in a macro to automatically place it under a target, Dark Knight can often have a lot of double-weaving, and double-weaving a macroed skill can be very awkward. Salted Earth is already extremely weak, so when you combine extremely weak with awkward to use you end with a skill that just feels really bad in general.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

Over the course of an entire fight, PLD and DRK are pushing the same amount of different keys for an offensive rotation.

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That's not really how you could count that. Pressing Living Shadow every two minutes does not break the monotony of doing the SoulEater combo ad nauseum, whereas PLD as a real "rotation" in its combos.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

However, they need to be vigilant about not overcapping MP or Blood gauge, as doing so is costing them dps.

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This is not that difficult since you can spend your MP anytime you want, and all for the same result in the end, keeping Darkside up. It would be management if DRK had other things that cost MP.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is not that difficult since you can spend your MP anytime you want, and all for the same result in the end, keeping Darkside up. It would be management if DRK had other things that cost MP.

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In the past (SB), generating MP was not an issue for DRK, it was deciding what to spend it on.
Now (ShB), It requires you to optimize your gameplay in order to generate MP, spending it is not an issue.

Abilities that give MP:
Delirium: 60s (Generates MP, no MP cost for Quietus & Bloodspiller)
You must fit 5 GCDs of either Quietus and/or Bloodspiller under it. Any less and it will be MP loss.

Blood Weapon: 60s (Generates MP and Blood Gauge)
You must fit 5 GCDs under it. Any less and it will be MP & Blood Gauge loss.

Carve and Spit: 60s
Straight forward, keep this on CDs. Align it with party buffs.

Syphon Strike: GCD (Single target 2nd combo)
You must keep uptime on target as much as you can in order to generate MP and Blood Gauge from 3rd GCD.

Stalwart Soul: GCD (AoE 2nd combo)
Gives you both MP and Blood Gauge.

People can think that generating resources is easy, but it isn't.
You will need to meld skill speed and maybe clip to fit 5 GCDs under Blood Weapon.
Keep uptime on target which requires you to play a little risky.

Missing out on Blood Weapon window alone will cost you to lose 2 buttons.
And if you keep missing it every minute, you will lose 20 buttons in a 10 minute encounter. That is a lot. And this is assuming Blood Weapon misuse only. Not counting the loss from the rest.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Now (ShB), It requires you to optimize your gameplay in order to generate MP, spending it is not an issue.

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So, basically, what you already had to do before, but with less pressure now.

You don't have to save MP to stance dance, you don't have to save MP to use Dark Arts on C&S to use it on CD, you don't have to save MP to Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and you also don't have to coordinate Delirium with Blood Weapon to make sure it gives the most MP/Blood that it can.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, basically, what you already had to do before, but with less pressure now.

You don't have to save MP to stance dance, you don't have to save MP to use Dark Arts on C&S to use it on CD, you don't have to save MP to Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and you also don't have to coordinate Delirium with Blood Weapon to make sure it gives the most MP/Blood that it can.

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The main problem with Dark Knight is that it's streamlined to where it's boring and it more or less boils down to "okay your thing is ready to use now so use it" and MP management is not really considered for defense since the reward for going with defense is just a refund that is not what people are asking for which is why you end up feeling like you're playing a level 30 class constantly because of how bad the sustained DPS is. Paladin and Gunbreaker only have this issue at certain points but that is more or less personal opinion so take what you will from that.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, basically, what you already had to do before, but with less pressure now.

You don't have to save MP to stance dance, you don't have to save MP to use Dark Arts on C&S to use it on CD, you don't have to save MP to Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and you also don't have to coordinate Delirium with Blood Weapon to make sure it gives the most MP/Blood that it can.

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The basic difference is that the difficulty could previously be considered consequent to both "decisions" and "checks", and now can only rightly be categorized as consequent to "checks" ("Did you remember to _____?"), and with fewer spikes in the attention required or types of "checks".

It's kind of like how HW DRK actions-per-minute and SB DRK actions-per-minute were actually quite close, yet felt very different in that DA wasn't the be-all-end-all of HW oGCDs, yet it very nearly was in SB.

I would like to share a clip from xenosys.

https://www.twitch.tv/xenosysvex/cli...e=7d&sort=time

I don't know why they decided future tanks invul has to have a downside to it. I mean it's not OP at all in a 8 man or raiding content so why must tank's invul has to have a downside when activated? It already has long cooldown and short duration, it's not like a tank(except PLD) can survive and clear content solely on it's own without healers and DPS. DRK is the only tank that has this. GNB is "pass-able" because of no dmg taken but the reduce to 1HP is questionable. Why and what is the design concept that you need to punish players that pressed this skill?