The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I believe respecting each other is the very basic of MMO group content

If one found the tank pulling too little and believe the tank could handle more,

I am sure simply asking the tank to pull more would be a more appropriate action than just run ahead

It is the tank job to pull and hold aggro, it is also the job for a tank to access the group and tank personal ability if the tank could pull more. "Ask" is not difficult.

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True enough, the ones that get the special assistance are the ones that don't respond to chat. Or they respond with the typical "No." or "You don't pay my sub."

Usually those that respond badly don't even make it to the special assistance phase; I prefer kicking those right then and there.

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That's a dangerous game, because if you just watch while three other people kill the adds -- and they survive without you -- you've just confirmed to three separate people that you aren't really needed.

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That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

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Not to mention it's a lot more appealing for a DPS player to kick the tank than to kick the healer, if it comes down to that.

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The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

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Then we're in agreement! We'd find each others' companionship in a single-pull party to be insufferable, so a tank kick is mutually beneficial.

And honestly, a little bravado from the healer makes a lot of DPS tingly. Something along the lines of "Since he won't tank, I'll be happy to" has always worked for me when a tank attempts (and fails) a wipe.

It actually doesn't really seem like we agree, but sure, if you say so.

Is... Is this actually a thread discussing the morality of and advocating for griefing someone you dont like?

Honestly, this can be settled in 2 sentences;

Use your words.
Don't be an *expletive*


Justify it however you'd like, but you're going out of your way to punish behavior you dont find acceptable- especially so if you're doing it without a word. Assuming this is solely a PUG situation, of course. As someone that both loathes tanks that pull slow and as a tank constantly finding excuses to pull more than is intended (and will continue to do, thank you SE for this torrent of AoE skills raining down upon this barren land).... I'm sorry, going "too slow" isn't an offense. If you're not even willing to give them the common decency of asking, why should they give you the decency of what you want?

Just... talk. should have plenty of time to with all those unbearably slow pulls full of downtime. Met a tank the other day that was recovering from a concussion. sure, teach them a lesson, you are truly the hero this community deserves.

This would be a much different discussion if this were about tanks that dont talk or pull slow out of spite... but just not enough in general in your roulettes? Cmon, guys. this aint a good look and the new ToS is gonna bear down on you. If you want more tanks around, try not treating the ones you have like garbage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Intent has zero relevance to the impact of design. If you made it to be food, but it works better as an explosive such that everyone soon uses it instead as a weapon, sorry, but that's an explosive.

If it can be done, and doing so is a net gain, then design encourages it. Whether that was intended or not has no place in the conversation.

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Intent of design is relative in game design, and i guess we need to lock down your ideas and make sure the intent is made clear then? Since we cannot respect when others play the content as intended:)

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

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Originally Posted by van_arn

It actually is a democracy when the party fires the tank with a votekick.

I'm fine with the game adjusting incoming and outgoing damage to be less paste-eating simple, but that's not something Square is going to do. And unless they do, you'll be expected to operate at a pace your party is comfortable with. Even if that pace is uncomfortable to you personally, time to time. Because the healer can forcibly take over the healing AND tanking roles with the numbers as they are.

Ultimately, a tank's self-importance doesn't count for much when the only reason they remain in the party is that party's good pleasure. Tip the scales and the tank is gone just like that.

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See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

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In my experience, when the tank dies the healer usually isn't far behind. So yeah, I'd be willing to call bull on this as well. And like you I'm also open to proof if there is any.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

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I'm saying that's perfectly fine; the goal is to merely get rid of the person that got voted out. You're someone else's problem at that point.