Why Speed Pulls?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Just as you used your own personal experience to support your point that most players who prefer not to speedrun tend to be subpar, I used my own to support a counter-argument to that idea. Do not lose yourself in the details, the larger point is very much there.

And it's my observation that the exact opposite is true.

You've been asking valid questions, and have received valid answers that you proceed to pick apart or claim invalid, only to re-ask the question in a perhaps different or more roundabout form. Based on MY observation, you will not be satisfied with any answers or points that do not support your own point. This doesn't make for a very effective discussion on the matter at all.

So let me just say this: Speedrunning is an OPTION, not a requirement. No instance has ever promoted or demanded players speedrun, so it remains an option, even if a preferred one among the majority of the community. Speedrunning also is a poor indicating factor of individual player skill as it is generally gear-based (and we all agree gear does NOT equal skill, yes?) Speedrunning - as an optional method - does not lend itself well to any other content other than dungeons, therefore again, is a poor indication of player skill (You can excel at raids but not at dungeons, and vice versa.) And lastly, Speedrunning - as a preferred method - is something that if players truly want to do without issue, can be arranged in the party finder, just like players who DON'T like/want to speedrun are so often suggested to do. Remember: OPTIONAL, not REQUIRED.

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Is this you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIm-p7a4xBI
If it is; you're decent. There's a few things you outright mess up on (priority of ability use, DoT uptime, CD order) - but since it's a No-tank run, those nitpicks can be written off. No-tank dungeons tend to focus more on the healer's ability than anybody else's, but still.
There are a few things that make me think, just from this example, that you are not as good a player as you seem to be setting forward in previous posts:
-Refreshing DoTs on an enemy that will die within seconds (many times)
-Not refreshing DoTs after they've fallen off a boss enemy until 3+GCDs later
-Using AoE skills at below the number of enemies that would make them worth using
-getting hit by AoEs
-tank-turning (controller)
Also, despite prior claims, you do not keep aggro consistantly while no-tanking. It's unfeasible to expect, but you claimed you did. And you do not.

Overall, from this example, I can safely say you are not as good a player as you set forth to back up your claims (as if they are relevant to the notion that "most people who choose not to speedrun are not good players").
This was posted months ago, so I'm sure you've improved since then. But overall, this is fairly low-quality play, if I am being perfectly blunt with you.

Again, I never said that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is bad. I just said that in most cases I have witnessed, that has been the case. And I can now chalk you down as "evidence" for that sentiment. I never really wanted to bring up personal skill, but since you did, I feel as though I need to address it.

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Originally Posted by Staris

People who think speed running doesn't take skill are automatically bad.

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Even though I'm no fan of SRs I can say yes it takes skill.

And yes I'm not a fan but I'm on the fence on the whole do I want or don't want a SR. What's the problem usually is when people run of and do a mass pull with limited AoE potential.

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Its practice, and working towards improving yourself.

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No argument here. It is to improve.

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You can even do it in pugs, by thinking what can you do to reduce the time with whatever random team members you get with whatever random skill/gear levels they have. (and to do this without causing wipes, or having a tolerable risk level)

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What's lacking in pugs is usually communication. Where are you pulling to or how much are you pulling, do you expect the whm to holy or not(I have been asked to just heal when they do a mass pull but that was one instance when anyone ever said anything). It's the variables that will cause the wipe not your personal skill.

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If you aren't trying to push yourself, the game has literately zero challenge, you make the challenge by doing it as fast as you can.

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But here's the thing. I play to enjoy myself. I don't want a challenge 90% of the time. I mostly do dungeons to relax and unwind after work. I do coils and fun runs to push myself and challenge myself.

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But I guess some people are ok with half afk no challenge ezmode giv loot please. To me you couldn't be lazier.

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It's called having fun and relaxing. Something a large part of the vocal community seems to have lost the idea behind.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

As far as I'm concerned, I'm alone in that opinion, and ok with it.

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You are not alone. But, most people a) do not use the forum b) do not like to post in these kind of topcis. Why? Sousoulso. Just an example.

Whatever someone sais: False, incorrect, personal opinion, wrong, not true [..]
Whatever he sais: Correct, maybe personal opinion -> STILL CORRECT, only valid opinion he accepts.

Its like explaining someone who killed T13 that not all non-raiders are bad players. You cant. They simply do not accept the fact that there are players out there who simply like to play other parts of the game / in a different way.

Sousoulsu. . . That intent to discredit me, are you?

That IS me, that was fun, and that was never attempted until then. When I did those videos, I didn't practice first, I didn't go in crunching numbers and attempting to optimize anything. I went in with the pure intent of seeing if it could be done. And it could. And I did. And it was a blast. Oh and THAT time I was the most undergeared in my party. NT Lost City was mine too.

Now then, let's refute a few things, since we're really down to just nitpicking here:

-Refreshing DoTs on an enemy that will die within seconds (many times)
Did it die? Yes. Was that efficient? No. Did the party survive? Yes. Good. Job done /tossout
-Not refreshing DoTs after they've fallen off a boss enemy until 3+GCDs later
Was I stressing that? Nope. Not in the least. Did we win? Yes. Did the party survive? ACTUALLY. . . Our healer died at the first boss due to RL distraction, and I died at the second (both were edited, obviously). Would you have known that had I not told you? No. Does it really matter? No. /tossout
-Using AoE skills at below the number of enemies that would make them worth using
I wanna facepalm at this SO BAD. . . Remember, no-tank. No aggro tools. Wide Volley essentially was my aggro tool. Was I worried about how many were "worth using" the skill on? Nope. That's just garbage, honestly. Oh, but it worked, so /tossout.
-getting hit by AoEs
/slaphand BAD LACE! You got hit by an AoE! How dare you! #worstplayerever


Seriously. . . /tossout
-tank-turning (controller)
^ Is this even a critical point?! Why yes, I DO play on PS4. I made the entire video on my PS4. I like my PS4. It's a wonderful system isn't it? PS4!
Also, despite prior claims, you do not keep aggro consistantly while no-tanking. It's unfeasible to expect, but you claimed you did. And you do not.
Um. . .actually, I DIDN'T claim that. Please don't put words in my mouth. And lest we forget, Bard: No aggro tools. Also, better geared BLM and WHM in party. Didn't bother me, didn't bother them. And largely if I lost em, I either got em right back or the BLM made short work of them. Did he complain? Nope. He was along for the ride, enjoying it like we all did.

You missed one: I don't think I played any songs there either. #badbard

Now is this the part where you nitpick that because it was an unorthodox fun run - UNREHEARSED and UNPLANNED - we're all terrible and inefficient and bad players? Because I'll just say this: Where's YOUR video? (<---- This is rhetorical. I'm not interested in any videos you might have. But thanks for the free publicity for mine. I'll have to get around to that Stone Vigil HM one soon. . . I'll be sure to miss a few DoTs just for you <3)

Seriously though, is your argument reduced to this now? Petty attempts to defame me? You're better than that. At least I'd like to believe so. You've had some valid points even, regardless of whether I agree or not, but this. . . this is disappointing. I'd be offended if I didn't actually find it kinda funny. So let me say this: No, I don't parse, I don't run numbers, and I don't ensure my every move and attack is an efficient, optimal action at the exact perfect moment. I'll even eat the occasional AoE (though I do get a thrill dodging those, at least when I do <3). I'll push out every last bit of DPS I can with whatever TP I have, wipe all damn day and even sacrifice myself to try and help a party member (ugh, WoD 5 Head dragon memories). I will put my party first - like it or not - and IF I'm tanking do my absolute best to hold the bloody line. My job isn't to be the best. My job is to do what's best for my party and keep them alive, and I'm damn good at that, regardless of the weapon in my hand or the role I'm playing at that given moment. And I don't need to speedrun to prove that.

But again, thanks for the free publicity. Mind linking the Lost City vid too? I quite enjoyed that little trip down memory lane.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I can tank as a Bard - a class with no enmity tools and far less defense, and have done so MANY times. . . That's an indication I'm an EXCELLENT tank.

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Claiming that you can tank implies you can hold aggro. You could not.
If you're referring to your ability to stay alive with aggro as a Bard, that's entirely on your healer and BLM who gave you Apocatastasis.
...But that's not really the point though.

If that video is how you usually play, I can freely say that you are not what most would consider to be a good player.
Good players find no difficulty in maintaining a high average caliber of play.
They do not refresh dots when the target will die before they are useful.
They do not forget to execute.
They do not forget to use cooldowns.
They do not move sluggishly and unoptimally (controller or no).
They do not try to bind things then instantly break them free of it with their next GCD.
They do not use AoE spells when it is in-optimal to use them.
They do not find dodging highly-telegraphed AoEs(first boss) any degree of difficult.


This is all simply a response to the post you made trying to quantify yourself as a good player. I am not making an effort to discredit you out of nowhere. You made the claim that you are a good player. I am using that video as evidence that you are not as good a player as you claimed. That is the long and short of it. No malice, no ire.

Since I make no claim as to my own personal skill as a player, I do not feel as though a video of mine would be relevant.
You brought your own personal skill into the discussion when it was not relevant. I do not feel off-base by citing that video as evidence to the contrary of what you claimed.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

You are not alone. But, most people a) do not use the forum b) do not like to post in these kind of topcis. Why? Sousoulso. Just an example.

Whatever someone sais: False, incorrect, personal opinion, wrong, not true [..]
Whatever he sais: Correct, maybe personal opinion -> STILL CORRECT, only valid opinion he accepts.

Its like explaining someone who killed T13 that not all non-raiders are bad players. You cant. They simply do not accept the fact that there are players out there who simply like to play other parts of the game / in a different way.

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I've been entirely cordial in all of my responses. I post in a straightforward way, and back the way I think up with examples.
You can disagree with me freely, but I have not seen any example given as to -why- you hold the opinion that you do.

All I really see from you when you post is uncalled-for personal attacks and general rudeness.
Since you haven't really brought any argument to the discussion from the outset, I will stop replying to you as I stopped replying to Zedd until you come up with a valid, well-thought-out argument.

Let me first begin with a massive eyeroll. . .

You interpreted my "I can tank as a Bard" statement as "I can consistently keep aggro with no enmity tools", and that's not what I said. Had I meant that, I'd have said that. Please don't read between the lines when there's nothing there. Oh and this might just be my "inefficient", "non-optimal" BLM experience talking (this is stated retro-actively to a later statement here) but doesn't Apocatastasis defend against magic attacks? Didn't see a whole lot of magic going on there. And yes, my healer kept me alive. . . good healer! Moving on:

Good players find no difficulty in maintaining optimal DPS. Neither do I. By the same token, I neither live or die by it either.
They do not refresh dots when the target will die before they are useful. DoTs or not, those ARE my attacks too. So then, what? Heavy Shot til it's dead? *eyeroll*
They do not forget to execute. #notperfect Sue me. *eyeroll* (P.S., yes they do. Dat human element tho. . .)
They do not forget to use cooldowns. And yet somehow I survived AND managed to kill my enemies. Whew!
They do not move sluggishly and unoptimally (controller or no). HA! This is just stupid. Sorry. It really is.
They do not try to bind things then instantly break them free of it with their next GCD. You're right. That's why I stopped using that. Don't even have it on my hotbar anymore.
They do not use AoE spells when it is in-optimal to use them. Unless you're referring to the BLM, who I won't make any comment on (purely because I didn't know anything BLM related until recently when I finally decided to level the class myself), I didn't see any spells cast from me there. . . And yes, I know you know that I know what you meant, but if we're really gonna split hairs, then let's take it there.
They do not find dodging highly-telegraphed AoEs(first boss) any degree of difficult. I'm sorry, what role was I essentially filling? And what do tanks normally do? Oh yeah, take hits that the rest of the party generally shouldn't take. Oh, but I suppose that'd be considered an excuse for getting hit once or twice (guess what else I wasn't counting?) I otherwise weave in and out of things so much I ought to go in as a Weaver. My ability to dodge things (is rather unorthodox if not a bit risky) is something I'm actually quite proud of. Especially under NORMAL circumstances. But hey, #notperfect. Find me someone who is. (Don't actually do this. I'm now convinced you probably would)

But hey, go ahead and try to accurately judge me from a 7 month old video I made for fun. Was it hard? No. Did any of us play "efficiently" or "optimize [insert one-sided reasoning to sustain an argument here]"? Nope. We went in to make a video clearing Halatali HM with no tank. And we did. And it was fun. <----- Hey look, it's that word again. "Fun". That thing I like to prioritize over efficiency and optimal anything for everything. You want to prove I'm not good. I get that. You WANT to be right. I get that. I do. But fact is you've derailed an entire argument just to try and discredit one player. You're wrong for that alone. And rather petty. Yet delightful in your pettiness.

Oh and THEN there's the playing nice and trying the "Since you're not bringing a well thought out argument to the table, I'm done replying to you" bit. Sorry, buddy. No bowing out gracefully. This isn't one of your "optimal", efficient setups. And this is definitely not MY first rodeo, let alone Zedd's or plenty of others. If you can't handle a little bit of inefficiency or work outside of optimal conditions, who's really the bad - I'm sorry, "not so good" player here?

P.S. Nice edit BTW. I've captured the original statement and will not change it. As for your "higher caliber", subjective nature aside, I'm confident enough in my own abilities, now more than 7 months ago. But sure, use that. Keep trying to defame me. Speaks in volumes of your own caliber.

Hey Lace, really like your posts on the forum, enjoy them on other topics very much.

This discussion however, you, Zedd and some other poster crossed the line with arguments like how slower pulling takes the party more skill and so on.
This was really unneccessary, left a bad taste and has been shot down by the others, for valid reasons you should have seen coming.

Not liking SRs is your opinion and everyone has to accept that.

I would just stop here and not go on discussing your skill on a 'professional' basis over a video obviously done for fun - with a stranger you never played with.

Where's Ellatrix? Can we get him back here? I liked him. He was at least, honestly mean and elitist.

This one's stuck on the faux-civil approach and petty tangents.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Hey Lace, really like your posts on the forum, enjoy them on other topics very much.

This discussion however, you, Zedd and some other poster crossed the line with arguments like how slower pulling takes the party more skill and so on.
This was really unneccessary, left a bad taste and has been shot down by the others, for valid reasons you should have seen coming.

Not liking SRs is your opinion and everyone has to accept that.

I would just stop here and not go on discussing your skill on a 'professional' basis over a video obviously done for fun - with a stranger you never played with.

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You know, you're absolutely right, and I'm a bit embarrassed I'm up at 5AM carrying on like this. How inefficient of me! (Last dig, I promise!) But you are correct. I can't rightly say anymore that SRs require more or less of a player, but I can say that I just don't enjoy them. I find them boring, and generally try to avoid having to do it or being forced to do it. And leave it at that.

When you play with people you don't know you usually have to adapt to each other, and the circumstances. This may mean trying to go quicker, or the opposite, waiting a bit for people who go slower, or slowing a bit to make things go smoother.

Usually people want to do the dungeons as fast as possible, so as a tank I try to go as fast as I think the group can go, or myself. Only if you tank the same dungeon many times and it hasn't passed a lot of time, you know for sure what groups of mobs can be killed together and what isn't worth it, so I sometimes don't try to group if I don't remember well what comes next.

I don't care if people pull more mobs to make the groups bigger, it may make things faster, I tank them too and nearly always it goes fine.

As it has been said, you may meet nasty people. The great majority of people are nice, but some are not and there's the chance to meet them. Some claim for a speed run and cannot kill the mobs quickly enough for the tank to survive, or cannot heal, or cannot tank that many mobs.

I hate speed running. Success hinges entirely on the healer, and plainly speaking, I just don't like that. Haven't met a pug yet with the stones to vote kick me over it, so I'll keep setting a quick but reasonable pace. Oh no! No player comms at the end of the dungeon! If player comm rewards weren't utter garbage, that might actually sting. SR's shave around four minutes off the clock on average, and I'm not working harder to save some bastard I'll never meet again four f***ing minutes as if I were an employee at a taco bell drive-through. The nerve of some of these guys.