"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

If you're in a random group then let the Tank do it. They typically know how much punishment they can take before it's too much. Not to mention that some healers may not be experienced enough to have everything pulled at once.

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I've done 6000 dungeons total, tanked every dungeon and healed every dungeon, so I'm well aware how much punishment a tank can take and it's always more than these clueless slow tanks think. And they aren't going to become less clueless if no one shows them how to pull and tank. That falls on dps and healers since there aren't any other tanks in the party.

As an alternative to pulling for the tank, I've noticed that standing very still every pull, not doing anything as a healer seems to also get the point across before we get to the last boss. Just a bit ahead of the tank... waiting...

...waiting...

...staring...

...and waiting...

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Other option is when the healer is absolutely sure they can do their job well, they can pull for the tank too.

DPS have no business pulling, though.

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Physical DPS have Arms Length + they can survive a few hits before the tank grabs everything off of them. Anyone can pull as there's no "pull" role in this game (just tank, dps and healer).

What really blows my mind is when there is a DPS that keeps pulling, then has aggro, then has the audacity to ask in party chat why they are tanking? Because you pulled, thats why.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

As an alternative to pulling for the tank, I've noticed that standing very still every pull, not doing anything as a healer seems to also get the point across before we get to the last boss. Just a bit ahead of the tank... waiting...

...waiting...

...staring...

...and waiting...

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Instead of not doing anything, i would use that time to hint the tank that he can pull more. Just waiting is a waste of time. And it might even get the tank to complain about you not doing anything. And if there is no response after the message, you can even do a rescue pull. That surely should alert him. Its your duty as healer to also make the tank aware of your capabilities.

But idealy the 2 dpses will just follow you and leave the tank alone. Without anyone around him, the tank will be forced to move forward as the other 3 players clearly indicate. And if the tank turns toxic, a votekick might solve the issue. As that is the most clear indication he wasnt doing his job at all.

And yes, i have seen a tank deliberately not using any protection abilities etc in order to show his truth forcefully after the healer told him he can grab more. That tank didnt stay long.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

But idealy the 2 dpses will just follow you and leave the tank alone. Without anyone around him, the tank will be forced to move forward as the other 3 players clearly indicate. And if the tank turns toxic, a votekick might solve the issue. As that is the most clear indication he wasnt doing his job at all.

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Oh yes, they usually do. And there is nothing for the tank to be toxic about. We're just politely waiting for him to catch up and giving him space to do his job which is to finish the pull. :)

I've had my fair share of experiences of advising people in this game and the success rate is much higher when you don't open a conversation with people who "play how they want". If they care, they'll ask. The tank can ask how much he should pull if he isn't sure, but I'm not going to argue about what's fun, who's paying the sub, what's best for someone's anxiety, who's deciding the pace or some other excuses. I'll just chill and make them look ridiculous.

Edit: there's also the fact that newbies may have no clue what kind of spells healers have so when they see a healer casting non stop, new tanks might assume the healer is struggling. The healer standing still waiting is a clear sign (across language barriers) that what has been pulled so far isn't actually doing any damage and there is no reason to stop pulling.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

So very selfish of you. Quite self-centered in fact. Are you suffering from Main Character Syndrome?

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Can easily reverse that. More so when a tank refuses to do their only job because someone pulled a mob or 4. Main character syndrome is more for the one throwing a fit than the person playing for efficiency

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Physical DPS have Arms Length + they can survive a few hits before the tank grabs everything off of them. Anyone can pull as there's no "pull" role in this game (just tank, dps and healer).

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Sadly 90% of DPSes dont even know what Arms Length do, so this point is sort of moot.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

What really blows my mind is when there is a DPS that keeps pulling, then has aggro, then has the audacity to ask in party chat why they are tanking? Because you pulled, thats why.

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Maybe don't be a snail

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...print_Icon.png

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...ength_Icon.png

There is no puller role (in fact hall of the novice says dps should pull and bring to the tank, sooo...) and YPYT is against the TOS...

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

in fact hall of the novice says dps should pull and bring to the tank, sooo...

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Press X to doubt.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

What really blows my mind is when there is a DPS that keeps pulling, then has aggro, then has the audacity to ask in party chat why they are tanking? Because you pulled, thats why.

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As a tank main, I have to ask. Why are there any mobs left for the dps to pull?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The mentality should be:

The convention is the Tank pulls. If you aren't the Tank, don't pull. If you aren't the Tank and want to pull, que as a Tank next time. If you aren't a Tank and want to pull RIGHT NOW, open Party chat and talk like an adult to ask the other 3 members of your team if they're okay with that.

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Imagine having party members that read chat.

As a non-tank I'll happily pull what I'm reasonably certain I can survive with my own tools. My health is my business, and if I die for it then so be it. Ideally the tank will just use my health and cooldowns as mitigation (if they are smart) instead of complaining about someone else pulling (only really happens if the tank has Main Character Syndrome)

Now if someone else pulls something I know will kill myself and the entire party (as tank), then I'll let them perish. This is pretty much exclusively relegated to Dzemael (frogs after the first boss) since it has some really spicy pulls with severely limited tank kits. Those pulls I warn the party about before going through there.

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Originally Posted by Delis

As a tank main, I have to ask. Why are there any mobs left for the dps to pull?

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https://media.tenor.com/0iCG-EWpDzMA...is-the-way.gif

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Originally Posted by Delis

As a tank main, I have to ask. Why are there any mobs left for the dps to pull?

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Indeed, how are any trash mobs paying any attention to anyone else once the tank sees a fleshy thing to attack

https://c.tenor.com/VmP4tS7iGwgAAAAd/tenor.gif

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...print_Icon.png

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...ength_Icon.png

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This.

Pretty much after level 32, you have all the W2W tools you need. Default mode for tank (should be) = pull it all.

Now, while we are having a fun tank bash...apparently none of the perfect DPS and perfect healers that haunt these forums make it into my DF randoms, because I can tell you that not every group handles W2W the same. I pull and get no heals at all. I pull and the DPS stay in single target. Wearing max gear for my xpac/level in every slot, pop every mitgator, use a heal potion, dodge AEs, the whole nine...still die. Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

This.

Pretty much after level 32, you have all the W2W tools you need. Default mode for tank (should be) = pull it all.

Now, while we are having a fun tank bash...apparently none of the perfect DPS and perfect healers that haunt these forums make it into my DF randoms, because I can tell you that not every group handles W2W the same. I pull and get no heals at all. I pull and the DPS stay in single target. Wearing max gear for my xpac/level in every slot, pop every mitgator, use a heal potion, dodge AEs, the whole nine...still die. Just sayin...

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I am far from a perfect healer even though its my main, but if you truly know how to mitigate and avoid most of the aoes and even manage to repair your gear on occasion, I guarantee I will not let you die.

managed to keep people alive that barely know even one of those requirements so you should be easy peasy

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Pretty much after level 32, you have all the W2W tools you need. Default mode for tank (should be) = pull it all.

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Except in Aurum Vale.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Except in Aurum Vale.

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Aurum Vale is fine if you're not brand new to it/party has decent gear. Just pull through the first room to the boss's room and line of sight everything in that little corner and AoE it down, just like every other dungeon. Every other pull in the dungeon is standard fare. AV isn't the boogieman people make it out to be.

AV pulls are so much overrated at this point it baffles me how there are still people moaning & rage quitting for getting it in roulette.

One thing people could do in AV is just... sac the tank at the first boss room. Tank runs ahead of everyone, pulls everything in the designated path and then tries to survive until they reach the boss room. Everyone else can safely run to the boss room and do nothing until the tank needs to be res'd.

If any Tank does this to me when I'm on DPS I just auto attack for the rest of the dungeon. They have decided they want to waste time so I'll join in. I'm a Tank/Healer main since day 1 so honestly this doesn't come up too often.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I am far from a perfect healer even though its my main, but if you truly know how to mitigate and avoid most of the aoes and even manage to repair your gear on occasion, I guarantee I will not let you die.

managed to keep people alive that barely know even one of those requirements so you should be easy peasy

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No forum healer or forum DPS ever screws up. I already acknowledged that. In the actual game however, with my gear well over the iLvl max for the dungeon (and I queue in front of the mender in Limsa so I literally repair after every single DF), doing the mitigations, avoiding the bad, etc...I have died to trash because healers straight forgot they were on their healer alt and not their DPS main, or BOTH of the DPS stayed single target because why not, etc. Now, in the actual game, when stuff like that happens, everyone generally gets along fine and the perpetrator of the latest "whoops, my bad" calls it out and everything proceeds fine from there, but it does happen...really.

I admit to screwing up tanking, here and there. Absolutely, guilty as charged. Even in spots where I know better and have done the dungeon dozens of times, I still do the occasional herpity derp. The one time I forgot to turn on the tank stance buff, Arum Vale...lol. I apologized profusely after first pull got the healer whacked. The first (and last) time I ran so far around a corner in Dzemael (to do the LoS break) that I outran my healer's range and got smoked...whoops. The occasional (hate this) where I outrun 1-2 stragglers in my W2W pack and they straight smoke my healer before I recognize. Eep. Again, profuse apologies. Oh yeah, personal nightmare...ice floors. Any boss that does the slip and slide thing....I turn 100% n00blet like it's my first day playing video games ever. And yeah, in some spots like Aurum Vale or other optional/hardmode dungeons, W2W is dicey and cannot just be assumed....but it isn't always the tank's fault. That's all I am saying. DF stories happen for lots of reasons.

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

Except in Aurum Vale.

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Yeah, but AV first room generally is easy, just pull to left side of each frog and stay there until pack is dead, move to next frog, don't stand in the bad. And it could be W2W'd, but in a random you cannot assume that your team is necessarily up to it, and doing the "pack per frog" thing might extend the run by 40-50 seconds? Across the level range, there are some dungeons that have a similar "you can do it, but is it worth it" section or two where caution makes more sense. If those spots honk the DPS off...cool, go pull for me if you think we got this. We'll see. If we pull it off, good for them and I now know I was being too cautious. Nothing better than git'ing gud, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Yeah, but AV first room generally is easy, just pull to left side of each frog and stay there until pack is dead, move to next frog, don't stand in the bad. And it could be W2W'd, but in a random you cannot assume that your team is necessarily up to it, and doing the "pack per frog" thing might extend the run by 40-50 seconds? Across the level range, there are some dungeons that have a similar "you can do it, but is it worth it" section or two where caution makes more sense. If those spots honk the DPS off...cool, go pull for me if you think we got this. We'll see. If we pull it off, good for them and I now know I was being too cautious. Nothing better than git'ing gud, yeah?

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Do it anyways because it teaches the healer a lesson: stop afking and use sprint so you can catch up with the tank to heal them.

Otherwise they become an Edda

Based thread as ever.

If someone pulls ahead of me despite my best efforts and with sprint on constant cooldown, and before I can be even in range for a ranged attack (as PLD you don't get the gap closer until lvl 81 or so), you bet your ass I'm going to let that person eat some damage first before I grab aggro.

"You pull, you tank" isn't just a bad mentality, it's a psycho mentality. Are you really going to sit there and say that cratering the run because your ego isn't being stroked is in any way defensible behavior?
When you queue into a dungeon run, you're expected to be there to play the game, not to have the other three play babysitter for your personal delusions of grandeur. You play to the best of your abilities, and if you don't you're griefing.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Yeah, but AV first room generally is easy, just pull to left side of each frog and stay there until pack is dead, move to next frog, don't stand in the bad. And it could be W2W'd, but in a random you cannot assume that your team is necessarily up to it, and doing the "pack per frog" thing might extend the run by 40-50 seconds? Across the level range, there are some dungeons that have a similar "you can do it, but is it worth it" section or two where caution makes more sense. If those spots honk the DPS off...cool, go pull for me if you think we got this. We'll see. If we pull it off, good for them and I now know I was being too cautious. Nothing better than git'ing gud, yeah?

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The first thing I do when I tank and get Aurum Vale is say "Stick to the wall".

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Originally Posted by TBerry

If someone pulls ahead of me despite my best efforts and with sprint on constant cooldown, and before I can be even in range for a ranged attack (as PLD you don't get the gap closer until lvl 81 or so), you bet your ass I'm going to let that person eat some damage first before I grab aggro.

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I mean that's literally the optimal thing to do, HP is a resource. If I pull ahead and you do this I'm actually only going to be glad that I can proc my arm's length for extra mit.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I suggest you learn that aggro can be taken with a single aoe button press. Guess who's not doing their job by being petty? Tanks don't get to decide who lives and who dies.

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I suggest you learn that if your icon isn't blue, pulling isn't for you.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

I suggest you learn that if your icon isn't blue, pulling isn't for you.

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OK, I want to see you only using Unmend from now on.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

OK, I want to see you only using Unmend from now on.

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If you as a DPS player want to run off because you couldn't keep you ADHD in check for 1m, yep you deserve to be on the floor in a time out, I'll grab the aggro once you die. DPS don't pay attention to how the party is handling things as a whole, it's always been a notoriously selfish role, maybe take a beat and think is the tank paying attention to something I'm not aware of. For example, maybe the healers new/not very good, so the tank is doing slightly smaller pulls to make it abit easier on them. Or do the other hyperactivity red kiddos keep getting clapped by AOE's so the tanks pulling less mobs so there's less for us to get hit by?

I don't think it's a big deal as long as they pull the mobs into the aoe deathball where they belong
If they pull ahead and start kiting the mobs in massive circles around the room, then that's just not it

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Originally Posted by Malthir

If you as a DPS player want to run off because you couldn't keep you ADHD in check for 1m, yep you deserve to be on the floor in a time out, I'll grab the aggro once you die. DPS don't pay attention to how the party is handling things as a whole, it's always be a notoriously selfish role, maybe take a beat and think is the tank paying attention to something I'm not aware of. For example, maybe the healers new/not very good, so the tank is doing slightly smaller pulls to make it abit easier on them. Or do the other hyperactivity red kiddos keep getting clapped by AOE's so the tanks pulling less mobs so there's less for us to get hit by?

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Nope, I'm going to pull everything and I'll even stop eating Adderall so it becomes even more chaotic just for you. Time me out bro, assert your manly tank aura on me and scold me and put me in my place like the serious, upstanding, honorable gentleman you are! Paint my dead body with your masculinity, with the manly masculine pheromones that you release when an ADHD DPS pulls and dies before you can pull the mob and be at the front of all of us womanly and feeble DPS!! Manly justice is served and on this day the masculine tank ego will suffer no slight!

Jesus... We have definitely some tanks in here.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Nope, I'm going to pull everything and I'll even stop eating Adderall so it becomes even more chaotic just for you. Time me out bro, assert your manly tank aura on me and scold me and put me in my place like the serious, upstanding, honorable gentleman you are! Paint my dead body with your masculinity, with the manly masculine pheromones that you release when an ADHD DPS pulls and dies before you can pull the mob and be at the front of all of us womanly and feeble DPS!! Manly justice is served and on this day the masculine tank ego will suffer no slight!

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So basically nuisance behavior.
Enjoy your ban.

A guildhest was enough to push me to the "You pull you take the damage" mentality. All I did was take care of 2 Opo-Opos and from there on I could never catch up. My sprint was on constant cooldown, and when I was in front, the healer pulled before I could get into range. Just plain egotistical behavior. Not once was I able to pull. Despite all my effort.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

A guildhest was enough to push me to the "You pull you take the damage" mentality. All I did was take care of 2 Opo-Opos and from there on I could never catch up. My sprint was on constant cooldown, and when I was in front, the healer pulled before I could get into range. Just plain egotistical behavior. Not once was I able to pull. Despite all my effort.

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What you're basically doing here is admitting that the only reason you don't want the DPS to pull is entirely about your own ego.
There's no negative effect on gameplay no matter who pulls mobs, as long as they all die and the team is alive. And if you're playing and trying your best, that's what's going to happen.
If you don't want other people to pull for you, ask nicely in the party chat and make it clear that you're unable to keep up. There are a lot of seniors playing the game too, so such a request isn't out of the question.
And if the tank isn't even needed to clear the content, there's no problem at all.

Please stop making the dungeon experience so negative and stressful for the other three players in your party.

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Originally Posted by loosie

What you're basically doing here is admitting that the only reason you don't want the DPS to pull is entirely about your own ego.
There's no negative effect on gameplay no matter who pulls mobs, as long as they all die and the team is alive. And if you're playing and trying your best, that's what's going to happen.
If you don't want other people to pull for you, ask nicely in the party chat and make it clear that you're unable to keep up. There are a lot of seniors playing the game too, so such a request isn't out of the question.
And if the tank isn't even needed to clear the content, there's no problem at all.

Please stop making the dungeon experience so negative and stressful for the other three players in your party.

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If I stopped to type I would've been accused of being egotistical anyway and or griefing.
I tried to do my job. The job I've seen in others doing in so many other dungeons.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

If I stopped to type I would've been accused of being egotistical anyway and or griefing.

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If you're actually friendly, no you won't be. Remember that it's a team game, you're not the leader and neither is anybody else.
Cooperation is not only the intent, but the expectation. If you stop to give the party attitude, then of course you're going to be accused. But if you ask nicely and explain with a good enough reason, then there's no problem.
At least, I haven't seen any situation where somebody gets harassed over it that hasn't resulted in whoever began being negative kicked from the group.

In the end, if you're asking the group to slow down so that you explicitly get to pull, you're not being cooperative and you're disrupting the group.
If you're asking the group to slow down because you can't keep up and you want to be part of the fighting, that's different. Everybody deserves to have fun and if somebody disagrees, oh well there's always next time.
And if you want to take your time, see the sights and be the main character without having to interact with other people, there's Duty Support.