#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Exploiting that weakness requires damage to actually be threatening enough to pressure your resources. SCH's trouble with adapting to suddenly bad situations was due to the limitations of Aetherflow, but with the way they design fights now, even that's no longer much of a weakness.

A lot of the tools we get end up being so vestigial that if we ported SCH directly from HW into the current game, it would have no trouble healing savage. Imagine that, damage is so non-threatening nowadays that a lv60 job from 6 years ago can heal through it.

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Yeah honestly that was my point

Random damage has to be non trivial to really unseat SCH and right now it simply doesn’t exist

When they removed non trivial random damage that’s really the point that SCH lost its last real weakness

Hmm, I wonder how the game would have ended up, if rather than removing Crit Autoattacks from enemies entirely, an additional gameplay element was added where 'if you have a Barrier active on you, you cannot be Crit by an enemy'?

I'm of the opinion that Random Crits weren't necessarily a problem (certainly not to the point where 'they need to be removed entirely'), instead I think it'd have been better to 'give players the tools to work around the game mechanic, so that they feel like they have the answer to the problem'. Awareness's 120s CD didn't cut it, it wasn't up often enough.

Let's say that SB happened, with this change of 'Barriers prevent Crits as long as they hold'. WHM would have gained a niche that expansion via Benison, of being able to negate Crits for 'free' via Divine Benison. Additionally, DRK's TBN existed then, but the Barrier aspect of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting did not, giving DRK the only 'on demand Crit negation skill' (unless you count Holmgang at 3min as a 'Crit negator' which, yeh it kinda was). Considering that was the expansion with O3S having a guaranteed Crit as a tankbuster (literally just called Critical Hit), and Shinryu's Tera Slash in the EX, I think the idea of Healers being much more 'in control' of negating Crits could have been a good addition to our gameplay. And since it's not damage, the 'no I want to heal I picked healer to heal not dps' crowd would appreciate its addition

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Hmm, I wonder how the game would have ended up, if rather than removing Crit Autoattacks from enemies entirely, an additional gameplay element was added where 'if you have a Barrier active on you, you cannot be Crit by an enemy'?

I'm of the opinion that Random Crits weren't necessarily a problem (certainly not to the point where 'they need to be removed entirely'), instead I think it'd have been better to 'give players the tools to work around the game mechanic, so that they feel like they have the answer to the problem'. Awareness's 120s CD didn't cut it, it wasn't up often enough.

Let's say that SB happened, with this change of 'Barriers prevent Crits as long as they hold'. WHM would have gained a niche that expansion via Benison, of being able to negate Crits for 'free' via Divine Benison. Additionally, DRK's TBN existed then, but the Barrier aspect of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting did not, giving DRK the only 'on demand Crit negation skill' (unless you count Holmgang at 3min as a 'Crit negator' which, yeh it kinda was). Considering that was the expansion with O3S having a guaranteed Crit as a tankbuster (literally just called Critical Hit), and Shinryu's Tera Slash in the EX, I think the idea of Healers being much more 'in control' of negating Crits could have been a good addition to our gameplay. And since it's not damage, the 'no I want to heal I picked healer to heal not dps' crowd would appreciate its addition

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Just a side thought, but if enemy crits did come back couldn’t that potentially open a whole new path for ‘critical resistance’? I mean, we know it can go down , but having effects on certain abilities that put it up could become an option too. They could even have like a ‘critical hit defense’ substat that’s like an inversion of ‘critical hit rate’. Though maybe that’d run the risk of negating the need for healers if everyone could just stack up materia or whatever to whatever ‘crit resistance’ is recommended for the content. Or, maybe they could just add a role skill that grants a ‘Nullifies the next crit’, like Stoneskin or something.

The only problem I really forsee with it is that Scholar’s Deployment might make it hard for the criticals to be a real threat because of barrier spreading. But then, that’s easily solved by having Deployment only spread the shield effects and not the crit nullification.

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Originally Posted by Connor

The only problem I really forsee with it is that Scholar’s Deployment might make it hard for the criticals to be a real threat because of barrier spreading. But then, that’s easily solved by having Deployment only spread the shield effects and not the crit nullification.

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Only two things could Crit a party member back then, an autoattack (which should be hitting a Tank), or very specific Physical Tankbusters (which are guaranteed to Crit every time, and should also be hitting a Tank). As such, for a SCH to make the Crits 'not be a real threat via Deployment' would A: require Deployment a lot more often than is available, to cover all the autoattacks, and B: cost a GCD almost every time to apply Adlo/Succor to the Tank. I'd imagine it'd be more a case of 'Oh Tera Slash (guaranteed crit) is coming soon, I'll Adlo the tank in advance because I don't know if they have many CDs left and it's better to be safe than sorry', rather than trying to keep 100% uptime on barriers to completely negate autoattack crits

Also, the game rolled for 'is it a Crit' before 'is it Blocked', even when the Block Rate was 100% (ie with Sheltron), so PLD would be disproportionately screwed by such a system, unless Holy Sheltron was adjusted to give some Barrier instead of 1000p of regen. IDK why Bloodwhetting has 400p of barrier, but Holy Sheltron doesn't. I guess PLD does get Guardian's massive barrier effect though. And DRK gets TBN, and GNB gets (sometimes) Brutal Shell, so maybe this wouldn't actually change anything after all

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Only two things could Crit a party member back then, an autoattack (which should be hitting a Tank), or very specific Physical Tankbusters (which are guaranteed to Crit every time, and should also be hitting a Tank). As such, for a SCH to make the Crits 'not be a real threat via Deployment' would A: require Deployment a lot more often than is available, to cover all the autoattacks, and B: cost a GCD almost every time to apply Adlo/Succor to the Tank. I'd imagine it'd be more a case of 'Oh Tera Slash (guaranteed crit) is coming soon, I'll Adlo the tank in advance because I don't know if they have many CDs left and it's better to be safe than sorry', rather than trying to keep 100% uptime on barriers to completely negate autoattack crits

Also, the game rolled for 'is it a Crit' before 'is it Blocked', even when the Block Rate was 100% (ie with Sheltron), so PLD would be disproportionately screwed by such a system, unless Holy Sheltron was adjusted to give some Barrier instead of 1000p of regen. IDK why Bloodwhetting has 400p of barrier, but Holy Sheltron doesn't. I guess PLD does get Guardian's massive barrier effect though. And DRK gets TBN, and GNB gets (sometimes) Brutal Shell, so maybe this wouldn't actually change anything after all

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*Hits Crack pipe* What if we made Clemency apply a Barrier equal to the damage healed? That's probably fair right? Can I have the ability to raise while I am at it. (I am serious about the last part, let Paladin Raise KO'd players, PLEASE. Make it cost all my MP I don't care.)

I think rather than MP, any tank raise should come with a HEFTY opportunity cost, like the standard raise cast time PLUS a requiescat token or more but even that goes against my principle position that tanks shouldn't be able to raise people, it's bad enough that tanks are increasingly capable of solo-ing content.

Tanks should NEVER be allowed to raise in any content because it opens too many doors to

Hallowed ground a mechanic that nobody understands -> raise the healer -> healer either LB3’s or raises the party

When you are in a desperate situation rotational opportunity cost is irrelevant for the tank. Who cares if you can’t requiescat when you just managed to half skip a mechanic because you survived then rezzed the healer allowing you to continue

Rather than a raise, I think it could be interesting if tanks gained a sacrifice ability where they can choose to die to give 5s of invulnerability to a party member.

That gives the tank some agency in preventing a wipe, but it's also a major sacrifice to do it and you have to time it properly, said invulnerability would also not protect from damage that goes through tank invulnerability.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Rather than a raise, I think it could be interesting if tanks gained a sacrifice ability where they can choose to die to give 5s of invulnerability to a party member.

That gives the tank some agency in preventing a wipe, but it's also a major sacrifice to do it and you have to time it properly, said invulnerability would also not protect from damage that goes through tank invulnerability.

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...wow, that's a button I'm not gonna touch with a 10 ft pole. I sort of get the fantasy and we have something similar in Bozja + Eureka, but there it makes sense considering the content it is designed for (Baldesion Arsenal, Delubrum Reginae Savage) restricting raises greatly, so a Sacrifice is worth it.

If it isn't even a raise, I'm not gonna touch that if it guarantees my death. Also, we actually sort of have what you ask for - Cover. Take all damage for a teammate, making them basically immune at the cost of your own life to whatever is about to kill them in most cases.

Just apply Weakness or Brink of Death to me without the death and then maybe?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Rather than a raise, I think it could be interesting if tanks gained a sacrifice ability where they can choose to die to give 5s of invulnerability to a party member.

That gives the tank some agency in preventing a wipe, but it's also a major sacrifice to do it and you have to time it properly, said invulnerability would also not protect from damage that goes through tank invulnerability.

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Oh.my.god! Give this skill to dark knights!

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Originally Posted by PietyAnxiety

Oh.my.god! Give this skill to dark knights!

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-wait but actually… make it a raise. A sacrifice that allows them to pick and raise someone. I truly wouldn’t mind it.

Why on earth is the idea of a tank Raise even being entertained

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Why on earth is the idea of a tank Raise even being entertained

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No idea. Don't tanks have enough already?

I don't know about anyone else, but I think tank raise would be way far outside of their role fantasy that it would be a massive stretch to make it work.

But I'm open to exploring another thing that fits the tank role fantasy, self-sacrifice to defend an ally. That provides agency to the tank in that they can defend a key member (healer/res caster) to prevent a wipe, it also kills the tank so aggro is an issue to take care of if the tank is forced to use it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But I'm open to exploring another thing that fits the tank role fantasy, self-sacrifice to defend an ally.

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Sacrifice L would like a word. :confused::p

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't know about anyone else, but I think tank raise would be way far outside of their role fantasy that it would be a massive stretch to make it work.

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WAR gets a warcry which is so intimidating that you get up and keep fighting?

I mean if a tank would get a raise then it would be WAR, because of course it would be WAR.

I mean, we did have a tank raise in the game for quite some time, actually. Just.. out of combat.

If we're going to talk about fantasy fulfillment, Paladin would be pretty much perfect for it. It's the only tank with a GCD heal so far, so.. I think it would fit the holy theme quite nicely.

If we're talking balancing, well sure. Why not. If you remove it from casters and give it to tanks, that means the casters will finally be balanced, right? That implies they are balanced that way to begin with, and we all know they absolutely aren't (summoner enjoyers will remember how wildly inconsistant this issue was, raise being available or not).

Personally, I have 0 issue with every single job having access to raise, because ultimately, the person being penalised is the dead one (aside from the lost GCDs for the raise caster, which is pretty consequent in itself, for sure). You can't clear savage with too many deaths.. and it would solve the issue of healers/DPSes dying during a boss in dungeon except the tank.

If tanks weren't functionally immortal, I wouldn't mind so much if they had a raise, but since raise is the last healer thing that we have in dungeons... I'm hesitant to use the words "Red Line" but I suppose the line does have to be drawn somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Doragan

I mean, we did have a tank raise in the game for quite some time, actually. Just.. out of combat.

If we're going to talk about fantasy fulfillment, Paladin would be pretty much perfect for it. It's the only tank with a GCD heal so far, so.. I think it would fit the holy theme quite nicely.

If we're talking balancing, well sure. Why not. If you remove it from casters and give it to tanks, that means the casters will finally be balanced, right? That implies they are balanced that way to begin with, and we all know they absolutely aren't (summoner enjoyers will remember how wildly inconsistant this issue was, raise being available or not).

Personally, I have 0 issue with every single job having access to raise, because ultimately, the person being penalised is the dead one (aside from the lost GCDs for the raise caster, which is pretty consequent in itself, for sure). You can't clear savage with too many deaths.. and it would solve the issue of healers/DPSes dying during a boss in dungeon except the tank.

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Personally, that's one of the worst ways that I can think of to solve the issue of healers or DPS dying in a dungeon, it's the the death of the current healer role by a thousand cuts in the game.

Rather than adding raise to tanks, I would rather add, for example (a) a self-raise only to healers (b) stronger mitigation/shields that can be applied only to the healer. I've seen both in other games, as healers were a step above casters in terms of squishiness.

Edited: Also, if you add raise to every role- I can just imagine the confusion, why no one knowing who will raise, any then no one being happy if they have to raise. So someone ends having to do it. So at the end- why not end up with a role that is designed to do it efficiently?

Something I have thought about, is that piety should probably lower the mp cost of raise and also hasten the cast time. However that would the bare minimum and also should do some other stuff.

Almost 1k pages. I am so happy for you guys.

Lol. But anyway...

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Something I have thought about, is that piety should probably lower the mp cost of raise and also hasten the cast time. However that would the bare minimum and also should do some other stuff.

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Years ago, Piety's first impression (without reading the description) struck to me as a 'mastery stat'-equivalent from another game. Of course that kinda disappoints me real quickly but I did mused some ideas in the off times such as:

1. WHM: Reduce the length of target's weakness/brink of death upon raising, may stack up to 75% reduction. Also give the WHM a low chance to completely negate Weakness/BoD penalty on raised target.
2. SCH: extends the effectiveness of their buff and debuffs (except Bios). How long are the extensions, I don't know, maybe close to double(?).
3. AST: Increase the radius of all AoE actions, up to double the amount at maximum(?) piety.
4. SGE: Idk since the idea was conceived in early 5.2. Maybe give them the haste?

Ofc that oughta make gearing all 4 healers a pain if you don't wish for all the same piety.

It would of added variety if sub stats did different things for different classes but again that comes at the cost of making it a pain to meld.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

If tanks weren't functionally immortal, I wouldn't mind so much if they had a raise, but since raise is the last healer thing that we have in dungeons... I'm hesitant to use the words "Red Line" but I suppose the line does have to be drawn somewhere.

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We have had so many "red lines" crossed by the devs when they give more healer tools to other jobs (especially warrior) that the playing field looks plaid.

I have all but given up hope that healers will get to remain healers in the future, 8.0 and beyond. I expect that we will become another form of magical ranged damage and all of the jobs will get some form of self healing, functionally removing healers.

I hate being this jaded over the whole situation but we have not received any meaningful assurances that healers are desired, let alone needed.

If every job receives the ability to raise, then making health bars go up should return to being the sole purview of the healer role.

The reason healing was given to everyone else is to lessen the burden on the healer role, so if everyone can raise a dead healer, then this advantage isn't required anymore.

Giving jobs like the tanks the ability to raise and allowing them to keep the ability to heal would not result in balance, it would just be propping up the importance of one role over all the others. Balance means every role in the party having their own importance, if you remove one advantage entirely from a role, you need to give them another to replace it.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I have all but given up hope that healers will get to remain healers in the future, 8.0 and beyond. I expect that we will become another form of magical ranged damage and all of the jobs will get some form of self healing, functionally removing healers.

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If healers turn out to be a bit more combat oriented with healing abilities embedded to their kits, that could be really cool. Heck, i’d go as far as to say Sage should be a real dps healer with a fully fleshed out dps kit that just pumps out healing(mitigating?) while you successfully do your rotation. White mage would most likely also be a dps healer but easier by comparison (basically how they are now with an additional dps skill or two). Somehow, I’d still see ast and sch staying within party utility because they’re pretty cemented there at this point. I can only hope they don’t have the same ridiculous 1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1.. nonsense.

However, all of this is a pipe dream. For all we know, 8.0 healers might just be 100% healing abilities where everyone’s fishing for freecure.

I wonder what happened to the spreadsheet that the detractors were making.
Do you think they just quietly stopped when they realize that there are more savage and ultimate raiders here than assumed?
or maybe they're feeling vindicated because it "proves" that we're all just a bunch of turbo hardcore raiders trying to ruin it for the little guy who can't possibly keep track of healing and more than two or three damage buttons.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

I wonder what happened to the spreadsheet that the detractors were making.
Do you think they just quietly stopped when they realize that there are more savage and ultimate raiders here than assumed?
or maybe they're feeling vindicated because it "proves" that we're all just a bunch of turbo hardcore raiders trying to ruin it for the little guy who can't possibly keep track of healing and more than two or three damage buttons.

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I honestly believe it's best forgotten, no one has brought it up in a long time.

1k pages!!!! Lets gooo!!!!

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Originally Posted by Shialan

1k pages!!!! Lets gooo!!!!

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250 pages for those of us who have it set to 40 posts per page. °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°

So much discussion and yet nary a peep from the devs, sad.

That would require them to acknowledge the thread exists and that people think there's a problem. Far easier to just refuse to speak of it.

Also yay first post on page 1000!

Captains log: Stardate 42069

It has been 1000 pages since the strike was announced. Healers are still stuck with single button spam for 90% of content. No word about steady increases of incoming damage or attack variety.

1000 pages lesgo

Happy page 1000!

Happy 1000 NEEDLES! I mean Pages!

Thank you to everybody who voiced their opinions in an effort to make our lives better!

If every post in this thread was a Broil (and others) cast

You’d have nearly enough to cover the amount of Broil (and others) casts done by healers over the course of…one fight. lol

I mean it really does feel like you’re hitting the button almost 10,000 times in 3 mins lol

Now two questions remain, the first one, when will they locked this thread? And two, who would want to start the next section of this with different name or version 2.0?

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Captains log: Stardate 42069

It has been 1000 pages since the strike was announced. Healers are still stuck with single button spam for 90% of content. No word about steady increases of incoming damage or attack variety.

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i LOL'd :D nice one