Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

I don't know how anyone can say it's the vocal minority with a straight face.
The only place I've seen with an overwhelmingly positive response to DT is Twitter, but how much of it is because the people with larger followings are controlling the narrative there? Twitter is very unfriendly to small accounts, whereas other sites aren't and everyone's opinion can be seen equally.

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It doesn't matter, in my opinion, Twitter opinion will be regarded as a majority opinion anyway. That's how many major companies see it. As long as Twitter likes it, it's good because, after all, it's where the face of the company is being seen by the public, not the forum.

FFXIV EN account on X blocked me pre DT for saying Wuk was shit. They are actively going out of their way to ignore any criticism.

Easy for Twitter to appear all sunshine and roses when official FFXIV Twitter blocked me for saying it sucked

Need to vent as well. So. She nods like us, she punches her fist like us, she smiles like us, I can't even see my character's face in cutscene because she's in the foreground, striking heroic poses with her axe. I'm bored when (lvl 99) i should be sobbing uncontrollably over some touching story, I'm skipping, I'm starting to feel unhealthy revulsion towards hrothgals and warriors. My character was tagging along during Koana's family reunion with their new-found relative and... why would he be there at all? It made no sense, it was awkward, it made me reach critical mass. I swear if it was just random cutscene without our silent unjustified presence it'd be bearable. But no, we are always there. Smiling. Nodding. Fray'd laugh his pants off.
I'd take Zenos over her in a heartbeat as someone'd mentioned. I'd take Fandaniel. Imagine I used to think we have too much Alphinaud. Oh my dear boy, I'm so sorry.

And here i am actually liking Wuk Lamat. Thinking she has a good story and not understanding all the hate she gets. She is bright positive sprightly in a world filled with drama and gloom. She brings a positive note.

She has her moment, don't get me wrong, like during the first area of the last zone. But she is quite a linear character overall, like, so little character development, suddenly powerful, and too much screen time, in my opinion. For me, she is about 6/10, pre-Heavensward Alphinaud level of naive.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Of course, because you don't like it its slop, you have heard the phrase about a holes right and how everyone has one?! yeah well im going there with your opinion and the opinions of the few people on this forum.

Looking at steam it has 1398 Reviews 64% are positive, the ones that are negative are met with "this review is funny" or a clown emote, there is most definitely more than 1398 players in this game and not everyone plays on steam. This forum, is quite literally a minority of toxic negativity, someone mentions something positive about the game your "kind" come out of the woodwork like a bad rash.

Honestly I don't get it, it can't be good for your mental health to wallow in all this negativity you're only pulling yourselves into the hole of hatred, whilst simultaneously trying to pull others in with you, just do everyone including yourselves a favour and find something else to do, you'll feel better I promise!

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So I can give an honest review or opinion and farm Steam points at the same time? I'll give you my Steam profile so you can keep clowning me. Thanks for feeding my anime-slop point shop addiction while allowing me to pimp my profile like an Itasha.

I can't believe you are using clowns are a metric....

yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah not gonna lie I thought the whole mentorship/competition arc was fine but Wok's character was basically Naruto without the hard work, Sasuke, or the swing. Like about half way through I started realizing that this really is just filler and it kinda bummed me out and felt like a chore. Her character writing (and voice acting at times) really weren't great. I get letting a new group of people have shots at taking on main roles but I feel like SE needs to have those who have a proven track record have oversight and like any on job training, grow those new talents properly with direction.

"It's totally the negative reviews that have clown overwhelming clown emojis!"
Meanwhile the positive reviews:
https://i.imgur.com/xgDNbxY.png

They're stupid for using clowns as a metric, but their argument doesn't even work when you can go look yourself right now to see that the positive reviews are clowned out the ass.

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Originally Posted by Karious

"It's totally the negative reviews that have clown overwhelming clown emojis!"
Meanwhile the positive reviews:
https://i.imgur.com/xgDNbxY.png

They're stupid for using clowns as a metric, but their argument doesn't even work when you can go look yourself right now to see that the positive reviews are clowned out the ass.

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63% is also a painfully low score on steam, combined with the fact steam stops you from making a review till you buy the game. It's really hard to review bomb the game in either a positive or negative direction on there when you have to buy at full price.
Compare that to metacritic where people are dropping a "10/10 the story is kinda mid but I like the graphics update and the soundtrack made me cry" to try to defend the game.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

63% is also a painfully low score on steam, combined with the fact steam stops you from making a review till you buy the game. It's really hard to review bomb the game in either a positive or negative direction on there when you have to buy at full price.
Compare that to metacritic where people are dropping a "10/10 the story is kinda mid but I like the graphics update and the soundtrack made me cry" to try to defend the game.

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I would like to add, recently if you Google any game, Steam scores are now included so it definitely matters when making a first impression to first time buyers. Remember what made SNOY and SEGA cave for Helldivers and Warhammer III. It was the Steam scores that made them realize they made mistakes and absolutely have to fix it. Though SEGA had to go on a firing rampage at Creative Assembly to fix some of it. Hopefully no mass firing rampages at CBU III.

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Originally Posted by CosmoBabylonia

I would like to add, recently if you Google any game, Steam scores are now included so it definitely matters when making a first impression to first time buyers. Remember what made SNOY and SEGA cave for Helldivers and Warhammer III. It was the Steam scores that made them realize they made mistakes and absolutely have to fix it. Though SEGA had to go on a firing rampage at Creative Assembly to fix some of it. Hopefully no mass firing rampages at CBU III.

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Google also has its own scoring.

This is.. dire...

https://i.gyazo.com/386d0ba0f0eb2c46...0956cf0e51.png

These are not verified but still...

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Originally Posted by CosmoBabylonia

I would like to add, recently if you Google any game, Steam scores are now included so it definitely matters when making a first impression to first time buyers. Remember what made SNOY and SEGA cave. It was the Steam scores that made them realize they made mistakes and absolutely have to fix it. Though SEGA had to go on a firing rampage to fix some of it. Hopefully no mass firing rampages at CBU III.

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I was stunned to see how powerful steam scores are. I don't take any of game magezine's scores seriously b/c they're all in the pockets of the studios. There are also very few game youtube channels I'll look at to see if a game is worth it. I usually always use Steam reviews though. I thought that was just me, but I was shocked when From Software nerfed their game after defending their difficulty choices for two weeks after their steam review dropped.

I don't want anyone to get fired over the DT MSQ. It's very clear to me this is a new team of writers that lack that critical eye to detail that the previous more experienced writers had. I know there will be growing pains to bring in new fresh takes to keep the story from growing stale, but geez they did it for 10yrs without a lot of issues.

If I had my way with suggesting how to handle that writing team it would be to rotate them through side quests / role quests first and train them up that way, which I'm sure they did.. but apparently not enough.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I was stunned to see how powerful steam scores are. I don't take any of game magezine's scores seriously b/c they're all in the pockets of the studios. There are also very few game youtube channels I'll look at to see if a game is worth it. I usually always use Steam reviews though. I thought that was just me, but I was shocked when From Software nerfed their game after defending their difficulty choices for two weeks after their steam review dropped.

I don't want anyone to get fired over the DT MSQ. It's very clear to me this is a new team of writers that lack that critical eye to detail that the previous more experienced writers had. I know there will be growing pains to bring in new fresh takes to keep the story from growing stale, but geez they did it for 10yrs without a lot of issues.

If I had my way with suggesting how to handle that writing team it would be to rotate them through side quests / role quests first and train them up that way, which I'm sure they did.. but apparently not enough.

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It's not a new team. They're only new to MSQ. They've written for quest chains in XIV for years.

https://i.redd.it/i3kbuytoxnad1.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Tethan

Google also has its own scoring.

This is.. dire...

https://i.gyazo.com/386d0ba0f0eb2c46...0956cf0e51.png

These are not verified but still...

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The first gaming news magazines are also talking about the bad reviews.

At this point something is starting to boil twitter is not the most important thing because that’s not we’re customers get news.
News are big part of it all.

I think in the end it will all depend on the content creators.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I don't want anyone to get fired over the DT MSQ..

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While I also don‘t want that someone has to take responsibility if only in the form of talking about the feedback and talking about it.
That’s what bosses are for. I also have to stand in for the people under me at work, positiv and negativ.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I was stunned to see how powerful steam scores are. I don't take any of game magezine's scores seriously b/c they're all in the pockets of the studios. There are also very few game youtube channels I'll look at to see if a game is worth it. I usually always use Steam reviews though. I thought that was just me, but I was shocked when From Software nerfed their game after defending their difficulty choices for two weeks after their steam review dropped.

I don't want anyone to get fired over the DT MSQ. It's very clear to me this is a new team of writers that lack that critical eye to detail that the previous more experienced writers had. I know there will be growing pains to bring in new fresh takes to keep the story from growing stale, but geez they did it for 10yrs without a lot of issues.

If I had my way with suggesting how to handle that writing team it would be to rotate them through side quests / role quests first and train them up that way, which I'm sure they did.. but apparently not enough.

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Fire the writer, he has never written anything good.
Fire the consultants who wanted to avoid white savior, colonizer aspects and are the main reason we aren't allowed to do shit.

Fire Kate while we're at it. She's obviously got her priorities wrong on what's important with the lore and localization.

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Originally Posted by Tethan

I feel like Yoshida might have mentally checked out after the conclusion of 6.0 Endwalker. He did what he set out to do, he turned the sinking ship around, saved the legacy of Final Fantasy, kept the game growing, successful and wildly profitable for over a decade. That's incredible and anyone would be tired, as a creator. That said, if he doesn't have the energy or time to spare to maintain the quality of FFXIV, then I think he should step down and let someone else take over. I know that is basically blasphemy to say, but nothing lasts forever and sometimes we have to move on, even if it's heartbreaking.

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Much as I am a member of the Church of Yoshi-P we have to acknowledge this rubbish got OK'd by their senior producers. I mean what happened there, didn't the senior people sit down and read the script/play the alphas, was there no "uhhh this isn't quite working" moment? How did this get greenlit? I have no answers.

Wuk Lamat is not the issue in the story. Its ok if you dont like this happy world cat, but this story is a mental breakdown to play. It simply starts with the fact that we as playercharacter are irrelevant. We are so irrelevant as character that we need to get told how great we are. We do nothing,we tell nothing,we have nothing to share,we arent even a necessary fighting force couse we play in unicorns-dancing-on-rainbows-world, we only follow and nod with out head.

This is just the biggest point of many i dont like. Ask me how i would descripe this Addon, my answer would be "lazy done". Dawntrail is an inexcusable humiliation in gamemaking.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Fire the writer, he has never written anything good.
Fire the consultants who wanted to avoid white savior, colonizer aspects and are the main reason we aren't allowed to do shit.

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Funny, the whole argument of avoiding the white savior/intervention/colonizer aspects falls quite quickly when you realize that we are playing the role of CIA agents intervening in local election.

Before people start baying for blood. Let's all take a beat. To clarify I'm all aboard the Wuk sucks train, I hated this expac and It's literally made me unable to play/enjoy any part of the game anymore. My game time runs out in like 2 or 3 days and I wont be back again. I never know when they will just shoehorn Wuk into my face again and I just can't take anymore of her so I just don't want to do the role quest or side content incase she gets shoved into that too.

That being said, writing is very hard. especially when you don't have anything to rely on as backstory. What they created is not without it's merits, the principle of the story and the world of the continent was fine, just the implementation is bad, pacing is bad, dragging the first act along waaaay to long was bad, resolving all the plot threads was bad, and merging wuk into everything was a mistake imo. Lot's of people make mistakes, so before you start crying out for people to lose their jobs. Just think for a second, the expac was not a complete pile of dogshit without merit and narratively could have been much much worse. The main reason I think alot of us are so angry, is because it was 30 hours of cutscenes with almost zero gameplay, you have to do it to be able to do other content, so we all feel like we were held hostage and forced along. I get it, but let's not try and ruin someone's life cause they did something poorly one time.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I'm going to be sick...

The scene after she succeeds with Koana coming into your ream reads like a bad fanfic where Self Insert OC Do Not Steal has their brother check on the actual canonical MC to confirm feelings of closeness. I mean the line is literally "You have become someone irreplaceable to her. As her brother, I acknowledge that with no little jealousy"

That reads like a child wrote it about their OC falling in love with Harry Potter, or WoL in this case, and it's actually gross and I want to scrub myself down to the BONE after feeling that absolute excrement poured onto me as the player. Absolutely vile... I wouldn't even want a replacement for her. I'd rather she go and leave me healthier for it, the cancerous lump she has turned out to be.

I'm not normally this harsh but damn that was bad

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I just ran through this bit of the story and the same flashing lights were interupting my brain from actually consuming this scene the way the writer hoped I would. I love romance angles to stories at the best and worst of times and this scene would have been perfectly acceptable had Wuk Lamat had any ground to stand on to have earned this. Up until this point, the story has done a fantastic job of shoving Wuk Lamat down my throat with no prep, no consent, no warning. Just, accept this and like this. It's the natural order of things.

Don't get me started on being asked to call her Llama Tea. I just answered with "..." and Krile continues the Dawntrail gaslighting in claiming I am simply caught off guard with the request and of course we would all be honoured to be considered Eorzean cousins. If I was isekai'd right now, with my WoL just entering the new zone with Erenville, I would jump at the opportunity to lose the entire gang, find Estinen and make my way back to Eorzea and hopefully sleep the whole thing off.

This expansion it was announced that Ishikawa took on more of a "manager" role, but from the writing/story we got I don't see her voice present anywhere. The Scions don't even feel like the same Scions that she gave us in Shadowbringers and Endwalker, it feels like we traveled back in time to the Scions of ARR. I don't know how much of a say she had over the story as "manager" or what that process looks like, but it's clear to me that she either needs to be more assertive about the direction of the story, or she needs to find someone who agrees with her overall vision for the story to be in charge of the direction of the story, because whoever was in charge in Dawntrail just wasn't it. It's like night and day compared to previous expansion story, and it's extremely clear that you can tell it was written by someone else.

I started playing after Endwalker came out, so I played through the entire game's story from start to Endwalker, and it felt like the characters developed well over time, especially in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. So it felt very jarring for those characters to suddenly have all the development taken away and it felt like they lost all of their distinct personalities for a character (Wuk Lamat) who wasn't as well written/developed as the Scions in previous expansions. If Ishikawa was present in the story and making sure the Scions were also still present with their distinct personalities that we have got to know over time, I don't think Wuk Lamat's grating personality would have been as awful. But it's like she was an energy vacuum that sucked all of Scion's personalities out of the room and it's like I wasn't allowed to just enjoy a new story and getting to know a new character with these characters that I already know and loved because they didn't even feel like the same Scions anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ruris

I just ran through this bit of the story and the same flashing lights were interupting my brain from actually consuming this scene the way the writer hoped I would. I love romance angles to stories at the best and worst of times and this scene would have been perfectly acceptable had Wuk Lamat had any ground to stand on to have earned this. Up until this point, the story has done a fantastic job of shoving Wuk Lamat down my throat with no prep, no consent, no warning. Just, accept this and like this. It's the natural order of things.

Don't get me started on being asked to call her Llama Tea. I just answered with "..." and Krile continues the Dawntrail gaslighting in claiming I am simply caught off guard with the request and of course we would all be honoured to be considered Eorzean cousins. If I was isekai'd right now, with my WoL just entering the new zone with Erenville, I would jump at the opportunity to lose the entire gang, find Estinen and make my way back to Eorzea and hopefully sleep the whole thing off.

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That's exactly what my WoL did as soon as Act 1 was completed. She strolled out to the jungle and vanished forever. The only sign of her passing was the faint sound of teleportation magic. For the first time since ARR closed beta, I have no desire to play another minute of the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Xendros

That's exactly what my WoL did as soon as Act 1 was completed. She strolled out to the jungle and vanished forever. The only sign of her passing was the faint sound of teleportation magic. For the first time since ARR closed beta, I have no desire to play another minute of the MSQ.

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I have always played my WoL as the kindest option possible, always picking the speech option that will uplift whoever I am talking to, I never snark. For the first time since I rode that carriage into Ul'dah I am "revenge selecting" by taking the most snarky reply option possible in all my optional speech moments. It's my small fist wave of fighting back against the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Xendros

That's exactly what my WoL did as soon as Act 1 was completed. She strolled out to the jungle and vanished forever. The only sign of her passing was the faint sound of teleportation magic. For the first time since ARR closed beta, I have no desire to play another minute of the MSQ.

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What kept me going was the assurance that after 97 it got way better. It doesn't...you made the right choice.

First time posting on the forums. I just had to after this disaster of an xpac. Even though I despised the post EW patches I didn't feel the need to post my grievances. But this horrible MSQ and the infuriating Wok LeRug was just too much for me to bear in silence. Everything I feel though has already been stated by others so I'll not pull the same stunt as the MSQ writers and repeat them ad nauseum.

I can only hope that the post patches do not include that flea bitten creature unless we get to kill her off. You know have her do a 180 out of nowhere (like so many other characters do in this MSQ) due to some offscreen BS (maybe she gets spit on by an alpaca primal?) and goes full evil so we... regrettably... *snicker*... have to put her down.

Humanely of course. Wouldn't want to draw that out. Like leave her at 1% awhile until we had to finish her.

Knowing the current writers though they'd probably have an alpaca come in at 10% and do it for us, thus stealing even that tiny bit of catharsis cause "lol so random!".

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

Much as I am a member of the Church of Yoshi-P we have to acknowledge this rubbish got OK'd by their senior producers. I mean what happened there, didn't the senior people sit down and read the script/play the alphas, was there no "uhhh this isn't quite working" moment? How did this get greenlit? I have no answers.

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I'm not defending Yoshida here, especially after the past two years, but I do wonder how far his influence goes in scenarios like these. I remember him saying he was surprised by Y'shtola's "froth and foam" bit back then and actually mentioned he felt like it might have been a step too far for her character, or words to that effect (Google is failing me.) Other comments by him also seem to indicate that while he has a general say in what goes and offers some input along the way, it's pretty much left to the writers until the later stages, and even then, there are some battles he loses if there's any disagreement. Ishikawa literally had the power to do a near rewrite of EW's plot at almost the last minute when she found it underwhelming, so I think it's a mistake to assume his word is law or he unequivocally approves of every writing decision the team makes.

I think the issue is whatever's driving this bizarre new direction they've taken with the game's tone that's been brewing for a while, and the fact they've largely handed things over to new writers this time around.

I found this thread by googling my disdain for Wuk Lamat. I am around the level 99 range, half way through the last zone and I am struggling to even want to pick up the next quest in what is other wise a fantastic zone knowing that the character of Wuk Lamat will interject themselves into every. single. conversation. They will come up with all the plans, they will be the one to perform the large zone actions, everyone will call her Lamaty'i and shower her with praise. I get tired of them showering my own character with praise at this point too. Why is every quest objective after speaking with 3 random npcs always falling back to "speak to Wuk Lamat"

I hope this expansion tells the devs how much having an ensemble cast helped their previous expansions and relying on one Writer's Pet character for 4x the lines of everyone else is a terrible decision. Krile and Erenville deserved so much better.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

Funny, the whole argument of avoiding the white savior/intervention/colonizer aspects falls quite quickly when you realize that we are playing the role of CIA agents intervening in local election.

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I really want to see someone roleplay as a CIA agent now. Gotta secure those Ceruleum shipments ya know?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'm not defending Yoshida here, especially after the past two years, but I do wonder how far his influence goes in scenarios like these. I remember him saying he was surprised by Y'shtola's "froth and foam" bit back then and actually mentioned he felt like it might have been a step too far for her character, or words to that effect (Google is failing me.) Other comments by him also seem to indicate that while he has a general say in what goes and offers some input along the way, it's pretty much left to the writers until the later stages, and even then, there are some battles he loses if there's any disagreement. Ishikawa literally had the power to do a near rewrite of EW's plot at almost the last minute when she found it underwhelming, so I think it's a mistake to assume his word is law or he unequivocally approves of every writing decision the team makes.

I think the issue is whatever's driving this bizarre new direction they've taken with the game's tone that's been brewing for a while, and the fact they've largely handed things over to new writers this time around.

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It might be other members of the board(and/or other leadership) trying to do the classic tone deaf mass appeal pivot with Yoshida tasked with playing the role of salesman.

I don't like the character either but I'll be damned if I started living in constant dread of Garfield, Warrior Princess.

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Originally Posted by Dorito_Burrito

Garfield, Warrior Princess.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/roEwjfNxZ.../spit-take.gif

It’s permanently damaged my trust in FFXIV to be honest.

Multiple people gave the green light to DT’s MSQ (and the Endwalker post MSQ). They wrote it, checked it, double checked it, and shipped it like this. Did Yoshi not play it first? Did any of them? The change in quality of storytelling was rapid and shockingly obvious, so much so I actually discovered and logged on to these forums for the first time since starting to play to find out what on earth had happened.

I hung around far too long after getting burned by Blizzard, and I swore never to give a company that much goodwill again. FFXIV felt like a breath of fresh air, a development team that actually really cared about the player enjoying themselves, cared about the lore and story.

The expansion was the first time I came looking for these forums. It is the first time the story felt like a slog rather than a joy. The first time I logged off in the middle of the last zone, vowing never to return because I was so annoyed/bored. And it is the last time that I will preorder an FFXIV expansion or play any of the post MSQ patches until I see reviews first and know which way the game is heading.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It might be other members of the board(and/or other leadership) trying to do the classic tone deaf mass appeal pivot with Yoshida tasked with playing the role of salesman.

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You would be surprised by just how frequently this is the case, even with someone in Yoshida's position.

That said, we don't know his true feelings on the matter, and it's just as likely he's quite happy with the result, but it's worth remembering there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes we don't know about, especially when it comes down to who has the final word about what happens with the game. The feedback for the actual fights and dungeon design seems very positive, so there's still a degree of care and thought going into into some areas, at least. I'm inclined to think the mess surrounding the story specifically is an attempt to hold on to the success and numbers achieved by previous expansions and catering to a broader demographic for that specific purpose (because the bottom line is and always will be, money) and that sort of decision making tends to come from higher up, if you catch my drift. And these days, fluff and fanservice sells.

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Originally Posted by antiabz

It’s permanently damaged my trust in FFXIV to be honest.

Multiple people gave the green light to DT’s MSQ (and the Endwalker post MSQ). They wrote it, checked it, double checked it, and shipped it like this. Did Yoshi not play it first? Did any of them? The change in quality of storytelling was rapid and shockingly obvious, so much so I actually discovered and logged on to these forums for the first time since starting to play to find out what on earth had happened.

I hung around far too long after getting burned by Blizzard, and I swore never to give a company that much goodwill again. FFXIV felt like a breath of fresh air, a development team that actually really cared about the player enjoying themselves, cared about the lore and story.

The expansion was the first time I came looking for these forums. It is the first time the story felt like a slog rather than a joy. The first time I logged off in the middle of the last zone, vowing never to return because I was so annoyed/bored. And it is the last time that I will preorder an FFXIV expansion or play any of the post MSQ patches until I see reviews first and know which way the game is heading.

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My I suggest SWTOR, the free to play version is not great, and the gameplay has some jank but each class has a fully voice decent storyline where you actually get to do things. I know that sounds like a novelty after the shitshow that is DT. Been playing through it myself just to have an MMO with an actual story I can enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Dorito_Burrito

I don't like the character either but I'll be damned if I started living in constant dread of Garfield, Warrior Princess.

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I'm just waiting for Square to sell her bathwater on the store at this point.

When you have the chance to play as her against Bakool Ja Ja and her Primal Cleave does 100 front flips before actually dealing damage. Yeah thats about right, sums up this character in one move.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

My I suggest SWTOR, the free to play version is not great, and the gameplay has some jank but each class has a fully voice decent storyline where you actually get to do things. I know that sounds like a novelty after the shitshow that is DT. Been playing through it myself just to have an MMO with an actual story I can enjoy.

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Thanks, I will check that out. We were at a bit of a loss trying to think what to play this weekend!