The Ninja Superthread

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I think I actually get Duality, it's a bit different.

I linked the screenshot of the tooltip above.
It has a duration of 10s. It's doesn't say a single weaponskill. It says single-target weaponskill.
I believe this means for 10s, all your single-target weaponskills hit for their non-bonused damage.

It says "double the number of non-critical strikes for a single-target weaponskill". The "a" might imply one ability, but then the "strikes" implies a few.
What I'm wondering is....if you crit do you not get the effect (the wording sounds like that)? Or do you get the effect as if you didn't crit?
The former would be dumb.

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It might be intended for use with the 3-hit WS, too. If you're right about the wording, it would process on all three hits of that. It's definitely a strange ability though.

If Duality is indeed Issou, which we heard about and the name is similar, this fits the first info we heard about it.
That we get an ability that buffs several weaponskills for a duration. I didn't imagine it would be such a weird mechanic though.

I'm reading it how I think you are Allyrion. 10s duration and all single target weapon skills you use will have a bonus of another strike sans the bonuses. So if you were to crit you'd get the crit on the weaponskill, but you'd get an extra attack without the crit (or bonus damage if it's part of a combo). So if you were to use this one the move that refreshes Huton you'd only get the refresh effect one time, and not two.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

I'm reading it how I think you are Allyrion. 10s duration and all single target weapon skills you use will have a bonus of another strike sans the bonuses. So if you were to crit you'd get the crit on the weaponskill, but you'd get an extra attack without the crit (or bonus damage if it's part of a combo). So if you were to use this one the move that refreshes Huton you'd only get the refresh effect one time, and not two.

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Ah,so it's a massive steroid for 10 seconds. So it is almost like multiplying the damage each ws does by 2x.

That sounds awesome if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Ah,so it's a massive steroid for 10 seconds. So it is almost like multiplying the damage each ws does by 2x.

That sounds awesome if that's the case.

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Well it only tech doubles spinning edge damage by 2 lol everything else it only adds 100 potency to. which is by no means a complaint lol

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Originally Posted by Akashiya

Well it only tech doubles spinning edge damage by 2 lol everything else it only adds 100 potency to. which is by no means a complaint lol

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The way it reads though is almost as if it's letting you do two ws chains at the same time for the tp cost of 1 chain.

Or am I mistaken? I mean, we'd the AE combo once but we'd practically get double the damage out of it. As long as it was done within those 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The way it reads though is almost as if it's letting you do two ws chains at the same time for the tp cost of 1 chain.

Or am I mistaken? I mean, we'd the AE combo once but we'd practically get double the damage out of it. As long as it was done within those 10 seconds.

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It doesn't gain combo bonuses. So it's not really 2 weapon skill chains.
E.g. Aeolian Edge is only 100 potency without its combo bonus.

It is really suspect wording, I agree.

I'm leaning towards a single weapon skill and a 10 sec window to do it. Life surge for dragoon also has a 10 sec window on it as an example.

So it would essentially add the base potency of one single target weapon skill to the move which would be the "second" hit.

So for instance if you used on aeolian it would be 320 + 100 potency which would make that aeolian a 420 potency attack but only the 320 potency (first hit) has the crit chance.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The way it reads though is almost as if it's letting you do two ws chains at the same time for the tp cost of 1 chain.

Or am I mistaken? I mean, we'd the AE combo once but we'd practically get double the damage out of it. As long as it was done within those 10 seconds.

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It doesn't gain combo bonuses. So it's not really 2 weapon skill chains.
E.g. Aeolian Edge is only 100 potency without its combo bonus.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

I'm reading it how I think you are Allyrion. 10s duration and all single target weapon skills you use will have a bonus of another strike sans the bonuses. So if you were to crit you'd get the crit on the weaponskill, but you'd get an extra attack without the crit (or bonus damage if it's part of a combo). So if you were to use this one the move that refreshes Huton you'd only get the refresh effect one time, and not two.

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Yes, this is how I read it.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It might be intended for use with the 3-hit WS, too. If you're right about the wording, it would process on all three hits of that. It's definitely a strange ability though.

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Mugen Sandan/Dream within a Dream is the most mysterious addition we have. There's little info on it.
Are the second and third stage considered effects? Then it wouldn't benefit.
Pluvia's reddit source says it's an off-gcd ability which means it's not a weaponskill. So it probably won't work with Duality.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i think they did tune down the number of positional mostly because of the complain. the initial announcement was clear about pay attention to several skill and now only this.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

omg thank you SE- positionals not bad at all... I think our feedback made a difference b/c yoshi said "several moves"

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No, the Japanese they used could be translated as "some" or "a few".
That's the thing about Japanese, it's plurality doesn't naturally exist. When it's added on, it's still very vague.
The translation wasn't necessarily wrong, it's just not possible to translate that into English without translating some degree of amount.

Which is why people shouldn't get their panties in a bunch reading about specific wordology used to translate a very ambiguous language.
Particular when it comes to amounts.

i190

WD: 72
DEX: 92
DET: 80
SS: 56

You never got this information from me... Look on Reddit.

92 DEX 80 DET???????????????????????? If this information is correct.... Just lol.

Considering the upcoming det nerfs and buffs for crit and speed, they might give an even distribution of det on gear now in comparison to other stats.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

Things don't line up.

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Reg Mudra Huton is 70. Crush Refresh is 30.
You won't be able to Mudra Huton > crush > crush > etc. because you are right, it won't line up. However if you make it a rotation of Mudra Huton > crush > Mudra Huton > crush it will like up fine.

What they essentially did was give you a Huton rotation that is predicated on interchanging your Mudra and interchanging 2 weapon skills that have positionals to maintain damage.

From my math, that I can gladly post if you would like, you will be using armor crush in place of 1 out of every 6 potential aeolians.

So you lose 1 aeolian out of every six which isn't really that big of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Reg Mudra Huton is 70. Crush Refresh is 30.
You won't be able to Mudra Huton > crush > crush > etc. because you are right, it won't line up. However if you make it a rotation of Mudra Huton > crush > Mudra Huton > crush it will like up fine.

What they essentially did was give you a Huton rotation that is predicated on interchanging your Mudra and interchanging 2 weapon skills that have positionals to maintain damage.

From my math, that I can gladly post if you would like, you will be using armor crush in place of 1 out of every 6 potential aeolians.

So you lose 1 aeolian out of every six which isn't really that big of an issue.

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is that calculated with having to keep up slashing debuff or someone else doing the slashing debuff

That would be with me keeping the debuff up and no warrior. I always calculate it that way because my last static had two pallys for some reason. But yeah if you add a warrior into the mix you can probably almost double the aeolian number. It was calculated on the basis that a "full rotation" would consist of dancing combo > shadowfang/mutilate combo > aeolian combo. I used my opener to calculate which is has a 15 second mudra precast. But if you have a warrior then you would be able to get 2 aeolians from one "full rotation".

This also means, and this is with the understanding that aeolian and crush are the only gcds with positionals, that you will be doing a positional every 16 seconds (not including trick attack)

The aeolain crush pattern i came up with from the math was:

(precast huton 15 seconds) Aeolian > Aeolian > crush > aeolian > huton/aeolian> aeolian> aoelian > aeolian> crush > aeolian > huton/aeolian > aeolian > aeolian > aeolian > crush > etc.

Each aeolian here would represent one "full rotation" as noted above and is calculated with no warrior. If you have a warrior each aeolian would count twice as dancing edge wouldn't be necessary. Also note every aeolain is a rear positional and every crush is a flank positional.

Anyone know the potency on the refresh?

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Anyone know the potency on the refresh?

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I do not but I wish i did. The extent of my understanding of it's damage is that full damage comes from the flank positional.

In a rotation by self-sustain and no wait time after casting Huton, I can wind in 4 Aeolians.
If I replace 1 AE for 1 Crush, I could potentially throw 2 Shurikens before reapplying Huton...

The skill is meant to extend it so dropping it for refresh is also an option.
Not using it at all is also possible.
If you have no access to the rear side when its AE's turn, it can also come in handy.
So far it seems Issou is an AE exclusivity.

I might be reading too much into this, but it seems like more than just a coincidence -
Duality's recast time is 90s, exactly the same as Dream Within a Dream
Duality is also learned right before Dream Within a Dream (lv 58 vs lv 60)

Definitely not positive, but it these skills might be best used together judging from the context.

They might synch in their CDs, but the effects can't overlap, damage-output wise.

DWaD seems kind of underwhelming to me now if it applies the second attack without the bonus. It sucks I'm out if town till next weekend. I don't get to take advantage of early release. I really want to play with these abilities. I'm thinking we'll fall to 3rd in the melee dps ranks unfortunately... for some reason.

Feels like drg and mnk got cooler toys for the expansion than we do.

Armor Crush:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
160 when executed from a target's flank.
Combo Action: Gust Slash
Combo Potency: 220 (280 when executed from a target's flank)
Combo Bonus: Extends Huton duration by 30s to a maximum of 70s
thats from people on reddits links

Dream within a dream is a potency of 100 each hit

perfect dodge is now shade shift
Create shadows that nullify damage up to 20% of your maximum hp lasts 20s 2min cd

it's me or shade shift is a bit...meh.

manawall was also adjusted in the same way

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it's me or shade shift is a bit...meh.

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It's basically Naruto Kage Bunshin no Jutsu(shadow clone jutsu) xD

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Originally Posted by Leonus

DWaD seems kind of underwhelming to me now if it applies the second attack without the bonus. It sucks I'm out if town till next weekend. I don't get to take advantage of early release. I really want to play with these abilities. I'm thinking we'll fall to 3rd in the melee dps ranks unfortunately... for some reason.

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You're thinking of Duality. Dream Within a Dream is a 3 stage off gcd skill.

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Originally Posted by Akashiya

Dream within a dream is a potency of 100 each hit

perfect dodge is now shade shift
Create shadows that nullify damage up to 20% of your maximum hp lasts 20s 2min cd

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Hmm, if DWD is a 3 stage oGCD.
Did we just lose a 3-Mudra combination but replace it with another 3 stage attack?
I guess it wasn't a bandaid fix after all, it was to make room for this attack.

I'll take it though. 300 potency for 3 inputs instead of no damage (and the buff we get free from another attack).

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it's me or shade shift is a bit...meh.

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A bit. I might be with you.
Perfect Dodge will be missed for the great moments it was useful.
This new ability lasts 20s though, so that's pretty good.
Not as dramatic maybe, but I'm sure it'll be used more.

Also, I hope we get some cool shadow animation to go with it. Then I won't look back.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

It's basically Naruto Kage Bunshin no Jutsu(shadow clone jutsu) xD

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Stop it.
Final Fantasy had Bushin (English translation was mirage) since FFIV which came out in 1991.
Then Kage Bushin for Final Fantasy came out in 1994 with FFVI, almost a decade (9 years) before the Naruto manga started.

Ah, ok. Gonna take me a bit o get all the new abilities straight.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You're thinking of Duality. Dream Within a Dream is a 3 stage off gcd skill.



Hmm, if DWD is a 3 stage oGCD.
Did we just lose a 3-Mudra combination but replace it with another 3 stage attack?
I guess it wasn't a bandaid fix after all, it was to make room for this attack.

I'll take it though. 300 potency for 3 inputs instead of no damage (and the buff we get free from another attack).



A bit. I might be with you.
Perfect Dodge will be missed for the great moments it was useful.
This new ability lasts 20s though, so that's pretty good.
Not as dramatic maybe, but I'm sure it'll be used more.

Also, I hope we get some cool shadow animation to go with it. Then I won't look back.

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Only have to hit it once it looks like here is the full tooltip
instant
Delivers a threefold attack, each hit with a potency of 100.

what bother me with shade shift is about the fact that it seems get positional, for make simple it will probably work only if we face the enemy (i do hope it not the case)

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Feels like drg and mnk got cooler toys for the expansion than we do.

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That to a degree its true, but MNK really wont change much outside of the opener.
DRG will get a way more frustrating rotation tho.
Most of NIN added on stuff are stand alone at least. Altho I admit they do look a bit lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Akashiya

Only have to hit it once it looks like here is the full tooltip
instant
Delivers a threefold attack, each hit with a potency of 100.

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So one press but maybe the ability is split 3 times.
That's good then, 3 chances to crit.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

what bother me with shade shift is about the fact that it seems get positional, for make simple it will probably work only if we face the enemy (i do hope it not the case)

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Positional for a defensive? That would be weird.
Didn't sound like that.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

shade shift gets positional?

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The effect its neither a parry nor a block, so its no positional, its a plain 20% of Max HP shield.

No more badassery but at long last something def oriented for the NIN's survival...

maybe it's me that have badly understand, i guess you are right about this one. mea culpa.

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Originally Posted by CBellz

I might be reading too much into this, but it seems like more than just a coincidence -
Duality's recast time is 90s, exactly the same as Dream Within a Dream
Duality is also learned right before Dream Within a Dream (lv 58 vs lv 60)

Definitely not positive, but it these skills might be best used together judging from the context.

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Based on what I've heard DWaD is an ability, not a weaponskill. So Duality probably won't work with DWaD.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Stop it.
Final Fantasy had Bushin (English translation was mirage) since FFIV which came out in 1991.
Then Kage Bushin for Final Fantasy came out in 1994 with FFVI, almost a decade (9 years) before the Naruto manga started.

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Not to mention Utsusemi, which NINs had in FFXI, which gave them shadow images to absorb attacks. I wish they would have called it that for the sake of my nostalgia instead of Shade Shift. But I'm glad we're getting a decent defensive cooldown now. Perfect Dodge was nice for a few gimmicky situations, but Shade Shift will have much greater applicability, I think.

It's interesting they didn't end up having to change the Japanese name (残影, "traces" of something that used to be there). Perfect Dodge in XIV was a name chosen for what the action did, as opposed to XI where it corresponds to the skill's Japanese name (絶対回避).

I would rather have perfect dodge honestly.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I would rather have perfect dodge honestly.

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Now we have a self stoneskin. It's very boring to say the least. It seems like the expansion is trying to make everything go back to being vanilla. I really don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Songi

Now we have a self stoneskin. It's very boring to say the least. It seems like the expansion is trying to make everything go back to being vanilla. I really don't like it.

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Songi HI :D

anyways, the new shade shift ability should have more practical uses when you think about it, as its not limited to soley physical damage by the sounds of it, so its not like your giving up perfect dodge for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Songi

Now we have a self stoneskin.

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At least NIN will have some sort of defense for magical attacks :/